Stage hypnosis or just a sham?

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Permalink Reply by Richard Nongard - NLPBoard.com on August 15, 2008 at 8:57pm

I have been to 1000 stage shows, some I have performed, and many others have performed. I have never seen a show that was a "blatantly obvious bogus display"
I think you either have not seen very many live shows performed with random audiences.
Shows don't look fake, because people ARE hypnositzed. If it was "nothing but a sham" people wouldn't pay $50 a ticket night after night in Las Vegas, and fill comedy clubs night after night all around the country.

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Permalink Reply by Brian David Phillips on August 15, 2008 at 9:01pm

Yes, they CAN be just pretend but they are NOT ALWAYS just pretend. Brain scans on hypnotized subjects regarding memory show the effect is genuine at least in those people who have been scanned while undergoing those phenomena.

Whether or not everyone can or cannot experience these phenomena is less relevant.

Sombunal, some but not all, stage hypnotists have strategies in place to recognize and deal with "fakers" just as clinical hypnotists should have similar strategies. The "problem" of fakers is far more serious in a clinical setting as a hypnotist is far less likely to be effective with someone who is merely aping to please the therapist or not to embarrass themselves (a reason I support covert testing and convincers).

All the best,
Brian
http://www.briandavidphillips.com

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Permalink Reply by Reg Blackwood - The Quicknotist on August 15, 2008 at 10:13pm

Interesting thoughts.
I believe the critical faculty to be diminished when hypnotised, but not completely bypassed.
You might have observed, in a stage show, a suggestion being "rejected."
One of two things happens:
Most commonly the suggested act is simply not carried out. Still, I believe, not a conscious "choice" as we know it, merely the rejection of a suggestion.
However, In some cases the very act of that suggestion being rejected can be enough for the second thing to happen: The subject "pops-up" completely out of hypnosis.
As for murder being suggested. I'm sure there's a small %age of the population who would accept that suggestion as a direct command, hypnotised or not!
I don't think a hypnotised subject whose critical faculty is diminished to the point where they "act around" in a way some might consider a bit foolish is comparable to someone who has a mindset (permanent critical faculty bypass!?) which prevents them from feeling either remorse or consequences and even gaining pleasure from horrific acts against others.

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Permalink Reply by Lee Darrow on August 16, 2008 at 1:49am

"... some spectators might just sneer at the blatantly obvious bogus display...?"

Methinks I detect some bias in this statement.

Richard and John are both on the right track - the majority of the volunteers in a good and professional stage hypnosis show will cycle from various levels of trance ranging from fully "normally conscious" to relatively deep states of hypnosis, throughout the show. While the volunteer's responses to the admittedly often bizarre scenaria and suggestions given them during the show may not only engage their imaginations to a level that they have not openly displayed to their friends and families before (think the typical "shower singer" or "private rock star lip-syncher" who rocks out only in the complete privacy of their locked bedroom as perfect examples) the fact that they engage on stage to do these behaviors is often due to a sense of freedom from the responsibility of repercussions, socially, that they might feel when in a "normal" state of consciousness.

So, while these " blatantly obvious bogus" displays might seem such to the audience, to the volunteers on stage, they are quite real when in trance state, often as evidenced by many by the post-hypnotic amnesia that they exhibit after many shows. Or by their sheer genuine surprise when they see the videos of themselves performing these actions on stage.

While it is true that some in the hypnosis community have said that stage hypnosis is somehow "bad" for the profession of clinical hypnosis, the fact remains that, in a recent poll on another board, over 60% of all respondents replied that it was exposure to a stage hypnosis show, either in person or seen on TV that first piqued their interest in hypnosis either for becoming a practitioner themselves or to pursue it for clinical purposes.

Stage hypnosis is the 800lb gorilla in the corner of every hypnotherapist's office. Without us, hypnotherapy would have died out as a therapeutic modality over 50 years ago because the interest in it, by the public would have died because oflack of exposure TO it as well as the lack of academic ability to pursue hypnosis through the educational systems, especially here in the USA.

NO US university, currently, offers hypnosis training for credit through their undergraduate programs except as a mention in other classes, such as Psychology 101, and perhaps Theories of Consciousness, where it gets all of one class session worth of time or, possibly a class on Stress Management, where, again, hypnosis gets short-shrift being less-favored than bio-feedback and yoga.

Lee Darrow, C.H.
www.leedarrow.com
www.stagehypnosissafetyclass.com

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Permalink Reply by Aino / Akpolarmom on February 7, 2010 at 8:43pm

Alen,
You seem to think hypnosis is not 'real' or am I reading all your comments wrong. I don't doubt that some people play along as I thought I was...But, I can tell you that from a personal point of view, my stage volunteer experience in the summer of 07 was my big convincer that I was indeed hypnotized. I was wondering if I was 'playing along,' self inducing or was I really 'entranced'. After all I was a new hypnosis student and was second guessing and analyzing everything she was doing. Then, after totally negatively hallucinating the hypnotist and watching her float my 'trance neighbor's' hat around, knowing better that hats don't float and voices just don't speak from places on stage where no one is.... I dropped so deeply, and so totally uninhibited that I fell off the chair, at her next SLEEP! and I have no real idea to this day what happened after that point. Though my friends said I was great at what ever she did with us. I can however, now clearly see the hypnotist in her ''antics being invisible'', though I did not see her at the time, but after the next SLEEP!, I can not bring any details around... lol

Any of you stage folks have any explanations or comments for that?

Aino

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Permalink Reply by Richard Rumble on February 7, 2010 at 9:08pm

Well.. I JUST finished a hypnosis show for a private party.... had some HUGE NFL guys there..( superbowl party for a sports agent and some of his clients) and in my experience... people experience the stage hypnosis differently. SOME people remember everything in detail.... some people remember NOTHING... some people are a combination of the two. For ME.. when I volunteer for shows... I have a really time... and then when I get back to the audience Sandee asks me if I was really hypnotized.... and without skipping a beat I say..." nope.. I was just playing along" EVEN THOUGH I KNOW I was hypnotized... the answer is always the same. I can't really explain it... I say it with out even thinking about it.... it just flows out of my mouth. About a day or two later I will slap my forehead and say... " Richard.. you KNOW you were hypnotized... why did you say that?"

Beats me...

I had one guy tonight that was doing GREAT... and then at the end of the show told me he could not remember anything.... I had one guy who was just OK.... and he remembered everything..... I had a girl that was probably in as light a trance as it gets... and at the END of the show when I took her name away.... was totally shocked when she could not say her own name.... she was totally perplexed that her voice just would NOT say her name.. and all this time she thought she was just "Playing along"

gotta love this stuff....

Aino.. if you REALLY want to remember ............. I know this hypnotist guy... LOL... he can help you out...

Richard

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Permalink Reply by Aino / Akpolarmom on February 7, 2010 at 9:33pm

Richard,
The funny thing is that ever other show since that I have volunteer for I have dropped like a rock.And I remember everything. Once a year later I arrived at the fair ( same hypnotist as I volunteered for the year before, but not the 'invisible gal') and missed his induction and a chance to volunteer. Sitting down resigning myself (sigh) that I'll just have to watch, he was just finishing booting a couple people off the stage and then dropped everyone again...Sleep!. The lady on the bleacher was quite surprised and made quite a commotion getting his attention to point out I slammed into her and was sleeping on her shoulder. Next thing I am on my way to Mars..... lol. It didn't matter that I had not seen this hypnotist in a yea, I still knew how to Sleep! when it was suggested. I did enjoy the rest of the show from the stage as he pulled me up as soon as we landed the space ship... :)


Richard Rumble said:

"Aino.. if you REALLY want to remember ............. I know this hypnotist guy... LOL... he can help you out.."

Yeah... I would love to take you up on that... Who knows one day we may be in the same place at the same time. Would love to see your show.. And volunteer of course!

Aino

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Permalink Reply by Calvin - The Hypnotist on February 7, 2010 at 11:15pm

to induce the REM state as you say as far enough to be in direct contact with there subconcious,if the subject wasnt a natural sommabulist would constant depening get someone a subject to that state?

John Cerbone - The Trance-Master said:

Most hypnotic Inductions involve an individual following the guidance of the hypnotist, into their best levels of relaxation.
In any decent and lengthy hypnosis stage show, hypnotic depth states are going to vary from moments to moment and from individual to individual.
Here's another way to look at this perhaps. In the Aron's six stage Hypnotic depth testing scale, most clinicians are taught that individuals can be a stage one to a stage six subject. Many clinical trainers elude to or even teach their students the hypnotic subject's hypnotic depth state is static, they are what they are and they stay as deep as they go. Perhaps over time with additional training and individual can learn in future sessions or through the use of Self-Hypnosis to go into a deeper level of trance. I will say here that after many years of experience hosting sessions and having hypnotized tens of thousands of people, I have seen trance depth states vary in the course of the session as well as in the course of a comedy hypnosis stage show.
After enough years of experience conducting clinical sessions I would imagine most of us would agree the subjects. state can vary even within the comfort of an office and a recliner chair.
The same thing occurs with a greater variant and more often during a comedy hypnosis stage show. Based upon the theory of mine, I have trained my students to look for when inducing a trance, or in order to roughly gauge trance depth, a for evidence of the six stages of the REM state. The six stages of the REM state do to a greater or lesser extent, based upon my experience, have a correlation to the Aron's six stages of hypnotic depth; in the first three stages of REM, the closed eyelids tend to flutter up and down; in the latter three stages, the eyes themselves move left and right back and forth. So, when I'm hosting a private session, I know the client is far enough into trance when I start to see eyelid flutter begin. followed by back and forth eye movement under the eyelids. When the REM state has occurred, they are in a deeper level of trance, and are experiencing the equivalent of hypnotic dreaming, which means you are in direct contact with their subconscious mind. This is generally where time distortion occurs, and your greatest potential affect for improvement in their lives impacts and become sustainable. In a stage show, what I am looking for is eyelid flutter beginning and eye movement under the eyelids. Since, for a great many in my show, there is a wide variant from barely hypnotized at all, to a stage six level of hypnotic depth where they are hallucinating. I have found that the best way to keep track of who's actually responding is to take a look at their eyes while I have just Reinduced. I have seen a great many times were individuals would seemingly be gabbing to the person next to them perfectly conscious and fully lucid, and when I shouted Sleep! -- they then dropped down like a rag doll into an extremely deep REM state and were some of the deepest hypnotized individuals and best responding superstars on my stage.

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Permalink Reply by Ricky Strode on February 8, 2010 at 3:10am

What is hypnosis and what isn't hypnosis. You want to see some stuff that isn't there normally, come see me. I can definitely help you with that and much much more.

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Permalink Reply by Michael Ellner on February 8, 2010 at 4:19am

Hey Reg-- I stand with you --

Newbies -- Mastery is not bending to "group think" If 99% of us agree on something - I am confident our profound understanding is sure to prove be incorrect....

Hi Brian -
The brain scan evidence you are mentioning do not explain away anything as far as I can see - I'm thinking the neuro-technology offers a look at the effect rather than the motivation.



I offer the X-factor.... X number of people will be "deeply hypnotized" -- X number of people will be "moderately hypnotized" and X number of people will acting out their understanding of hypnotic behavior -- the Masterful hypno is able recognize who's who and who's what and he or she is easily able to draw out the best of each of their participants.

Michael E.

Reg Blackwood - The Quicknotist said:

My brief post was my answer to both questions:
"My question is... how much of stage hypnosis is just social compliance, the desire to play along?"
"Another question; what's the difference between compliance to suggestion (pass the butter) and a hypnotic suggestion?"
The poster was "interested in all opinions" so what's yours Bruce?
As a hypnotist, in my opinion, it is essential to know the difference between someone who is choosing to comply with a suggestion and someone who is genuinely hypnotised.
It's sad that you chose to interpret my answer the way you did.
I'm prepared to concede that I'm not as well informed as you and 99% of the members of this site but I do know that beginning a reply "with respect" doesn't necessarily make it a respectful reply.

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Permalink Reply by Jonathan Chase on February 8, 2010 at 4:28am

I use the Perato Rule Michael as it seems to fit in most cases. So 20% can - 20% can't and 60% vary between the two. I think this spans the hypnosis world regardless of what the point of the exercise is.

In my opinion however the good performer only uses the best and the entirely hypnotised and totally manipulates the experience for them from start to finish. And yes, that is both on and off stage.

Michael Ellner said:

Hey Reg-- I stand with you --

I offer the X-factor.... X number of people will be "deeply hypnotized" -- X number of people will be "moderately hypnotized" and X number of people will acting out their understanding of hypnotic behavior -- the Masterful hypno is able recognize who's who and who's what and he or she is easily able to draw out the best of each of their participants. Michael E.

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Permalink Reply by Ricky Strode on February 8, 2010 at 4:43am

Actually it was more like an advertisement, but in any sorts. Here in other parts of the world, we can talk about people however we want to as long as it is't violently threating them or blackmail.

Rachel Houghton said:

Please be careful what you say about my partner.

You are on the borderline of committing defamation of character.

I merel answered a question why make this personal - thats hardly professinal is it?

Ian Jay said:

Jonathan Royle (or whatever he decides to call himself), who claims to have a Ph.D is an exposed conman.

End of story.

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