Compliance in Hypnosis

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by spooneythegoon on December 21, 2009 at 4:48am

If hypnosis was simply compliance then how would covert hypnosis work?

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Permalink Reply by Graham Old on December 21, 2009 at 8:37am

Conca,

I think that JR's view is more nuanced than 'an acted out state of compliance' would suggest.

For example, if I could get you to pretend that you couldn't feel your hand, such that your mind convinced your body, which further convinced your mind - creating a bit of a feedback loop - then you might get to a point where you couldn't actually feel your hand. That's very different to the sort of 'social compliance' claim people normally throw at Stage Hypnotists.

Due to Jonathan's (how shall I put it...?) crassness, I think that people often assume that he is some sort of opinionated hack. However, he is actually a very experienced and effective hypnotist. I work closely with a Harvard Street hypnotherapist who has done all the levels of NLP training, as well as numerous courses with most of the 'names' in hypnosis, and she said that she's never gone "deeper" than when Jonathan hypnotised her on one of his courses. She now uses his CMT script for all manner of cases.

Similarly, I'm not sure that Derren Brown would say it is nothing more than that, even if that is a big part of it. He speaks of 'persuasion without awareness' which is clearly not the same thing as straightforward compliance.

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Permalink Reply by Paula Duncan Nongard on December 21, 2009 at 8:55am

Compliance Where? When? How? for what Purpose?

Do you mean, is the client complying by 1) doing exactly what the hypnotist says, rather like a robot, or 2) achieving the expected outcome, no matter the process used to get there?

Do you mean compliance by simply going into trance as the hypnotist suggests, by whatever method of induction is used? Or do you mean the subject sings like Madonna on stage, because they were told to do so by the hypnotist? Or do you mean the client begins to eat better and exercise more, based on the suggestive instructions given by the hypnotist for weightloss?

Is "compliance" a factor in hypnosis? Of course. No matter if you are doing clinical hypnosis or a stage performance, if your subject does not respond in such a way as to meet the pre-expected goals, then their non-compliance has possibly created a 'failed' experience.

But, not necessarily. It all depends on the goals of the experience.

If they did not sing like Madonna, but sang like Elvis instead, were they non-compliant? If the overall goal was simply to create an entertaining stage show, then the experience was not a failure, correct?

If they did not raise their arm very high as instructed in the balloon/book test, but they were still in a deep trance state, and still became a non-smoker at the end of the clinical session, were they non-compliant?

Compliance is a factor, just as is confidence and so forth, but mostly it's the process as a whole and whether the expected outcome is met or not, that determines "failure" or "success" during a hypnotic experience.

2 cents
~ Paula

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Permalink Reply by Michael Ellner on December 21, 2009 at 9:22am

Hello Paula -

Nice to see you posting again -- It's been many moons -- Welcome back.

Michael E.

Paula Duncan Nongard said:

Compliance Where? When? How? for what Purpose?

Do you mean, is the client complying by 1) doing exactly what the hypnotist says, rather like a robot, or 2) achieving the expected outcome, no matter the process used to get there?

Do you mean compliance by simply going into trance as the hypnotist suggests, by whatever method of induction is used? Or do you mean the subject sings like Madonna on stage, because they were told to do so by the hypnotist? Or do you mean the client begins to eat better and exercise more, based on the suggestive instructions given by the hypnotist for weightloss?

Is "compliance" a factor in hypnosis? Of course. No matter if you are doing clinical hypnosis or a stage performance, if your subject does not respond in such a way as to meet the pre-expected goals, then their non-compliance has possibly created a 'failed' experience.

But, not necessarily. It all depends on the goals of the experience.

If they did not sing like Madonna, but sang like Elvis instead, were they non-compliant? If the overall goal was simply to create an entertaining stage show, then the experience was not a failure, correct?

If they did not raise their arm very high as instructed in the balloon/book test, but they were still in a deep trance state, and still became a non-smoker at the end of the clinical session, were they non-compliant?

Compliance is a factor, just as is confidence and so forth, but mostly it's the process as a whole and whether the expected outcome is met or not, that determines "failure" or "success" during a hypnotic experience.

2 cents
~ Paula

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Permalink Reply by Hugh Cole on December 21, 2009 at 10:27am

Paula, I'll second Michael .. Good to see you on here.

Conca .... You have raised a really really interesting question, but not the one you actually asked. Everybody is responing to your "model" question. No matter what a model says ... It's just a model. When you accept and "believe" a model you step into it's boundaries, accepting everything it has to offer. including those nasty little limiting beliefs masquarding as presuppositions. You ever hear those terse little bromides we as hypnotists like to sling around like "What your thinking about your bringing about"? Well that's what you are doing with models ..making self fullfilling prophesies, .. Because when they become your God .. they also create your heaven and hell. and ... If you believe Hypnosis is "merely" acquiesence. That is what it becomes for you.

I don't know if the acquiesece model is what JR actually believes or not, but it makes a sort of logical sense to me, as I have listened to him and watched him over the years, that he might accept it fully. Paula doesn't accept it,
obviously, Micheal Ellner doesn't and I sure don't. In fact Michael's advice is very good,, look at a bunch of models and pick something you like and works for you.

Limiting Beliefs are Contagious ... Choose your mentors wisely.

Hugh Cole
The Pretty Goodest Hypnotist on the Planet

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Permalink Reply by John Cleesattel on December 21, 2009 at 12:21pm

Conca
In effect, what Jonathan Royle says has some truth to it. It is true in the same way that "All hypnosis is self-hypnosis" is true; philosophically.

Let me explain:
The judgmental mind controls our behavior. It determines what we will do and what we won't do. Even in trance, this watchdog is ever present. It can be fooled, it can be mislead, but it still monitors and okays suggestions. If you doubt it, suggest something that you know would violate the subject's moral or ethical codes and see what happens. In this way, trance can be viewed as a state of compliance.

This is the reason that I always include "is that okay with you?" after I give a suggestion. It removes all doubt from both of us and insures I get compliance from the judgmental part of the mind.

Other than that, trance effects are just automatic reaction to outside input.

I hope this helps you
John

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Permalink Reply by Connor Wyatt on December 21, 2009 at 2:18pm

Thank you that does clear it up, I can see where it comes in.

Conca

John Cleesattel said:

Conca
In effect, what Jonathan Royle says has some truth to it. It is true in the same way that "All hypnosis is self-hypnosis" is true; philosophically.

Let me explain:
The judgmental mind controls our behavior. It determines what we will do and what we won't do. Even in trance, this watchdog is ever present. It can be fooled, it can be mislead, but it still monitors and okays suggestions. If you doubt it, suggest something that you know would violate the subject's moral or ethical codes and see what happens. In this way, trance can be viewed as a state of compliance.

This is the reason that I always include "is that okay with you?" after I give a suggestion. It removes all doubt from both of us and insures I get compliance from the judgmental part of the mind.

Other than that, trance effects are just automatic reaction to outside input.

I hope this helps you
John

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Permalink Reply by Connor Wyatt on December 21, 2009 at 2:22pm

Derren Brown says in his book "Tricks of the Mind" that he thinks that hypnosis is an acted out state of compliance, that's where I got it from but I'm not entirely sure what he meant now.

Conca

Graham Old said:

Conca,

I think that JR's view is more nuanced than 'an acted out state of compliance' would suggest.

For example, if I could get you to pretend that you couldn't feel your hand, such that your mind convinced your body, which further convinced your mind - creating a bit of a feedback loop - then you might get to a point where you couldn't actually feel your hand. That's very different to the sort of 'social compliance' claim people normally throw at Stage Hypnotists.

Due to Jonathan's (how shall I put it...?) crassness, I think that people often assume that he is some sort of opinionated hack. However, he is actually a very experienced and effective hypnotist. I work closely with a Harvard Street hypnotherapist who has done all the levels of NLP training, as well as numerous courses with most of the 'names' in hypnosis, and she said that she's never gone "deeper" than when Jonathan hypnotised her on one of his courses. She now uses his CMT script for all manner of cases.

Similarly, I'm not sure that Derren Brown would say it is nothing more than that, even if that is a big part of it. He speaks of 'persuasion without awareness' which is clearly not the same thing as straightforward compliance.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Connor Wyatt on December 21, 2009 at 2:25pm

That's an interesting story there, and I totally agree. It just made me wonder.

Conca

edington said:

I don't know who first came up with the phrase 'social compliance' but it sounds like a euphemism for play-acting and a subject not in a genuine trance. some of it is some of it is not. now take the original meaning of the word somnambulism- a person who carries out activities in his sleep such as raiding the fridge in his sleep with no memory of it the next morning. he's not being compliant, he has an unconscious compulsion to raid the fridge and actually does it unconsciously. what has this got to do with hypnotism? well, an early name for hypnotism was artificial somnambulism because a state resembling somnambulism was induced in the subject and he felt compelled to act upon any suggestion.
at that level of hypnosis, which I've experienced for myself, the bits I do remember, which is very little, the hypnotists instructions seem more like my own inner voice and I did not even think that another person was putting them in my head. although there is some unconscious resistance and I'm sure occasionally I was coming out of the trance, which was the bits I remembered, although not totally.

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Permalink Reply by Michael Ellner on December 21, 2009 at 2:46pm

Hi,

In my opinion and experience the Judgmental Mind is a slave - I say that because it seems to me that every compulsive behavior is driven by unconscious motivations that overwhelm the judgemental/critical mind --- Will yourself to sleep and you become more awake. Will yourself to stop smoking and you find yourself standing outside in the rain smoking. One of the greatest minds in our field Emile Coue, put it this way: "When the imagination and will power are in conflict, are antagonistic, it is always the imagination which wins, without any exception." Another great thinker John Ruskin said it this way: "The imagination is never governed, it is always the ruling and divine power."

My understanding of the Compliance model is that: People tend to comply with percieved experts and authority figures because they have a life time of unconscious programing to do so. The compliance model views hypnotic behaviors as an extreme manefestation of this conditioned and unconsious behavior. In my opinion, the model contains a seed of truth, but it only explains hypnotic behavior in limited situations...

Michael E.

John Cleesattel said:

Conca
In effect, what Jonathan Royle says has some truth to it. It is true in the same way that "All hypnosis is self-hypnosis" is true; philosophically.

Let me explain:
The judgmental mind controls our behavior. It determines what we will do and what we won't do. Even in trance, this watchdog is ever present. It can be fooled, it can be mislead, but it still monitors and okays suggestions. If you doubt it, suggest something that you know would violate the subject's moral or ethical codes and see what happens. In this way, trance can be viewed as a state of compliance.

This is the reason that I always include "is that okay with you?" after I give a suggestion. It removes all doubt from both of us and insures I get compliance from the judgmental part of the mind.

Other than that, trance effects are just automatic reaction to outside input.

I hope this helps you
John

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Permalink Reply by John Cerbone - The Trance-Master on December 21, 2009 at 6:18pm

Here my view - I see Hypnosis as a naturally occuring brain-wave enrgy pattern shift into relaxation, opening the subconscious mind to a more open place for suggestion, which occurs in most people 7 times a day. Some have said others are thinking it's not a brain-wave shift. There are 3-D scans that show this shift occuring.

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Permalink Reply by Michael Ellner on December 21, 2009 at 6:38pm

Hi John,

Not one of the 3 brain scan technologies EEG, PET and fMRI have found a signature state for hypnosis -- There is no evidence that simply being relaxed and that's what your 3D scans are showing increases suggestibility--

Michael E.

John Cerbone - The Trance-Master said:

Here my view - I see Hypnosis as a naturally occuring brain-wave enrgy pattern shift into relaxation, opening the subconscious mind to a more open place for suggestion, which occurs in most people 7 times a day. Some have said others are thinking it's not a brain-wave shift. There are 3-D scans that show this shift occuring.

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