depression. treatment with hypnotherapy and psychotherapy. discuss and evaluate

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Rob McKeon on August 29, 2010 at 2:12pm

I can't really speak to much of the proposed changes to the DSM that will take place in the 5th edition. The only ones I've spent time thinking about have been the proposed changes to Substance-Related Disorders.

I think some interesting proposed changes are - the inclusion of mixed anxiety depression from the appendix to the main manual; the inclusion of agoraphobia as a codable disorder; and the amusing consideration of hoarding disorder; the elimination of the diagnosis of Asperger's disorder; and the major revision of the personality disorder category.

Or did you mean to ask what I thought of the DSM itself?

Rob


sion stephens said:

id love to hear what you thinkof the dsm v rob

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by sion stephens on August 29, 2010 at 11:19pm

yeah that too what you think of the dsm itself as a way of diagnosing mental health.

Rob McKeon said:

I can't really speak to much of the proposed changes to the DSM that will take place in the 5th edition. The only ones I've spent time thinking about have been the proposed changes to Substance-Related Disorders.

I think some interesting proposed changes are - the inclusion of mixed anxiety depression from the appendix to the main manual; the inclusion of agoraphobia as a codable disorder; and the amusing consideration of hoarding disorder; the elimination of the diagnosis of Asperger's disorder; and the major revision of the personality disorder category.

Or did you mean to ask what I thought of the DSM itself?

Rob


sion stephens said:

id love to hear what you thinkof the dsm v rob

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Rob McKeon on August 30, 2010 at 1:47pm

I think a lot of people don't truly get the DSM and the functions of the psychiatric taxonomy, and I would many psychiatrists in that. Many who view the DSM and such psychiatric nosologies in a negative light are often committing the genetic fallacy.

Besides the original descriptive function of Kraepelin inspired biological diagnostic systems of psychiatric diagnosis I think as an emergent social feature they also function prescriptively. The totality of its function is not limited to that for which it was originally intended.

Illness is socially constructed and there exists culturally recognised and accepted ways of manifesting psychological illness or suffering. Each culture has its own culture bound disorders, be it fun non-Western ones such as Koro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koro_%28medicine%29) or Western ones such as anorexia or IBS.

I view the DSM and the promulgating of its disorders as functioning, in part, to shape and validate the culturally accepted ways of being ill. It has a legitimising function every bit as much, if not more, than the stigmatising function that anti-psychiatrists attack it for. Many people are delighted to hear that their problem is a socially recognised, accepted, and treatable problem.

It also opens up a shared language and acknowledgement upon which mental health workers and suffering clients can initially say something concrete and the clinician can quickly acknowledge (as the representative of society) that they hear, understand, and accept the meaningfulness of the client's suffering.

Then the real work can proceed beyond the initial communication, and acceptance, of socially recognised suffering.

The DSM is as much a social as a scientific phenomenon (in fact the science is often dodgy) but, given my view of it expressed above, I think it is functioning in accordance with its most important role when it is being affected by social and political factors.

The question that has always been on my mind in respect of the cultural shaping of expressions of suffering and illness in our modern consumerist information heavy world is this: Is it feasible or desirable to fully accept and embrace the fact that academics, researchers, clinicians, and the media construct and shape psychological illness and to move towards actively promoting (advertising?) more benign forms of illness?

Now I obviously don't subscribe to the idea that all manifestations of psychopathology are merely chosen communications which are socially constructed. I fully recognise that many are symptoms of personal attempts to resolve difficulties in being, and others are due to cognitive, emotional, behavioural, physical, and social deficiencies.

If the DSM or ICD didn't exist we would have to invent them. There is nothing inherent in such texts and conceptual categories which prevents any clinician ever from treating a client from an existential humanistic perspective. The key is to be able to switch between the perception of the phenomenological human being and the meaningfulness of diagnosis.

One cannot see the human being and whatever psychiatric nomenclature one is applying concurrently, one has to switch between them. RD Laing explained it as being like those Gestalt foreground/background perceptual illusions where a picture looks like a vase if you consider the black to be the foreground but the profile of a person's face if you consider the black to be the background (http://img.sparknotes.com/101s/psychology/05.11.face.vase.jpg). One cannot see both at the same time, our perception switches between them.

People who like to bash psychiatry or psychology or psychotherapy erroneously believe that such practitioners cannot see the human being if they see the diagnosis, or cannot see the face if they see the vase. But let's be honest. By and large we are talking about highly intelligent people who devote many years of full time study to their vocation, and who likely got into it in order to help people. They can see the person. It's just difficult to imagine for those who can't see the diagnosis that it's possible to be attend to both. It is, just not at exactly the same time.

I think there would be a lot more suffering if taxonomies of mental illness didn't exist and people didn't specialise in helping certain populations. It's a lot better than gross categories such as "happy" and "unhappy".

Anyway that's probably more than enough on that topic on a hypnosis site, and I'm not a psychiatrist, they can defend their own system :)



sion stephens said:

yeah that too what you think of the dsm itself as a way of diagnosing mental health.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Mohammed Magsi on August 30, 2010 at 4:03pm

Hi Sion,

There are no guarantees that counselling or hypnotherapy can treat depression. But I like the difference between these two different therapies, how depression is looked at and what solution(s) are provided to resolve those issue(s).

The reason I left counselling and continue working as a clinical hypnotherapist and NLP consultant is that:

- Client sees the results are in lesser time then even CBT sessions
- Client doesn't have to re-live her/his depression, pain, negative thoughts

I have treated few clients with depression and no complaints so far. I have seen clients who believed that they had depression and showed the usual clinical signs of depression but in our initial consultation, they realised that their issue were somewhat different then depression.

I hope this answers your question.

Mohammed

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jenny Lynn on September 6, 2010 at 8:55am

Loved your reply here Kevin.
I'm an integrative psychotherapist using hypnotherapy too and I can endorse everything you say here. Practical ways of thinking and behaving differently will help clients overcome their pervasive depressive states.

Best
Jenny
www.readyourclient.com

Kevin Cole-NLPTrainingQuest.com said:

"i have this question to answer in my counselling course was wondering if anyone has any opinion on this matter. I have heard that hypnotherapy is quicker but is not guarenteed to be as effective long term."

**Of course for those -like me- that are not licensed counselors/therapists, we must always get a referral from the clients doctor before working with them for depression and of course there are different levels of depression... Always work within your scope of practice. That said...

In general, faster results are achieved with hypnosis and NLP (along with many other modalities) than traditional "talk therapy", however I have found that the right psychotherapist or counselor that uses NLP/Hypnosis in conjunction with their usual protocol, can gain results just as quickly.

There's never a guarantee and how long it lasts, in my experience, depends on the client and how much he/she implements the tools that you teach them. Overcome depression is usually only successful long term when you teach clients practical tools for coping with day to day challenges. Teach them HOW to feel good naturally so that they understand that they are in control of how they feel.

So long as the client uses the tools that you teach him/her, in my experience the results are life long... That doesn't mean that they won't have bad days (we all do) or that something significant won't happen, such as a death of a loved one that won't require additional help, but in general... Teach a man to fish and he'll never go hungry again...

"Also is regression always used in treating depression in hypnotherapy, do you really have to go back to find the cause??"

**Absolutely Not. It can be quite useful and I often will (once I've built up plenty of positive resources via other work that has nothing to do with Regression), but it's in no way a requirement. Again, teach a man/woman to fish and they'll never go hungry again...

A book that may give you some great insight into what's possible with NLP & Hypnosis for depression and countless other issues is "Richard Bandler's Guide To Trance-Formations". It's only about $11 on amazon and is an excellent read...


Hope that helps,

Kevin

Live NLP, Life Coach & Hypnosis Training

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by sion stephens on September 6, 2010 at 10:22am

yeah as always good advice from a man with expirience in the area. cheers kevin

Jenny Lynn said:

Loved your reply here Kevin.
I'm an integrative psychotherapist using hypnotherapy too and I can endorse everything you say here. Practical ways of thinking and behaving differently will help clients overcome their pervasive depressive states.

Best
Jenny
www.readyourclient.com

Kevin Cole-NLPTrainingQuest.com said:

"i have this question to answer in my counselling course was wondering if anyone has any opinion on this matter. I have heard that hypnotherapy is quicker but is not guarenteed to be as effective long term."

**Of course for those -like me- that are not licensed counselors/therapists, we must always get a referral from the clients doctor before working with them for depression and of course there are different levels of depression... Always work within your scope of practice. That said...

In general, faster results are achieved with hypnosis and NLP (along with many other modalities) than traditional "talk therapy", however I have found that the right psychotherapist or counselor that uses NLP/Hypnosis in conjunction with their usual protocol, can gain results just as quickly.

There's never a guarantee and how long it lasts, in my experience, depends on the client and how much he/she implements the tools that you teach them. Overcome depression is usually only successful long term when you teach clients practical tools for coping with day to day challenges. Teach them HOW to feel good naturally so that they understand that they are in control of how they feel.

So long as the client uses the tools that you teach him/her, in my experience the results are life long... That doesn't mean that they won't have bad days (we all do) or that something significant won't happen, such as a death of a loved one that won't require additional help, but in general... Teach a man to fish and he'll never go hungry again...

"Also is regression always used in treating depression in hypnotherapy, do you really have to go back to find the cause??"

**Absolutely Not. It can be quite useful and I often will (once I've built up plenty of positive resources via other work that has nothing to do with Regression), but it's in no way a requirement. Again, teach a man/woman to fish and they'll never go hungry again...

A book that may give you some great insight into what's possible with NLP & Hypnosis for depression and countless other issues is "Richard Bandler's Guide To Trance-Formations". It's only about $11 on amazon and is an excellent read...


Hope that helps,

Kevin

Live NLP, Life Coach & Hypnosis Training

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by sion stephens on September 6, 2010 at 10:29am

Thanks for your message mohammed.
It is quite interesting that you have left counselling to follow with nlp and hypnotherapy. I too am taking part in a hypnotherapy / nlp course later in the year as well as the counselling diploma. Im looking forward to see which way i decide to go once i have the knowledge and expirience.
thanks

Mohammed Magsi said:

Hi Sion,

There are no guarantees that counselling or hypnotherapy can treat depression. But I like the difference between these two different therapies, how depression is looked at and what solution(s) are provided to resolve those issue(s).

The reason I left counselling and continue working as a clinical hypnotherapist and NLP consultant is that:

- Client sees the results are in lesser time then even CBT sessions
- Client doesn't have to re-live her/his depression, pain, negative thoughts

I have treated few clients with depression and no complaints so far. I have seen clients who believed that they had depression and showed the usual clinical signs of depression but in our initial consultation, they realised that their issue were somewhat different then depression.

I hope this answers your question.

Mohammed

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by sion stephens on September 6, 2010 at 10:33am

Thanks rob for your detailed message i will be ure to use the information you have given me.thanks

Rob McKeon said:

I think a lot of people don't truly get the DSM and the functions of the psychiatric taxonomy, and I would many psychiatrists in that. Many who view the DSM and such psychiatric nosologies in a negative light are often committing the genetic fallacy.

Besides the original descriptive function of Kraepelin inspired biological diagnostic systems of psychiatric diagnosis I think as an emergent social feature they also function prescriptively. The totality of its function is not limited to that for which it was originally intended.

Illness is socially constructed and there exists culturally recognised and accepted ways of manifesting psychological illness or suffering. Each culture has its own culture bound disorders, be it fun non-Western ones such as Koro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koro_%28medicine%29) or Western ones such as anorexia or IBS.

I view the DSM and the promulgating of its disorders as functioning, in part, to shape and validate the culturally accepted ways of being ill. It has a legitimising function every bit as much, if not more, than the stigmatising function that anti-psychiatrists attack it for. Many people are delighted to hear that their problem is a socially recognised, accepted, and treatable problem.

It also opens up a shared language and acknowledgement upon which mental health workers and suffering clients can initially say something concrete and the clinician can quickly acknowledge (as the representative of society) that they hear, understand, and accept the meaningfulness of the client's suffering.

Then the real work can proceed beyond the initial communication, and acceptance, of socially recognised suffering.

The DSM is as much a social as a scientific phenomenon (in fact the science is often dodgy) but, given my view of it expressed above, I think it is functioning in accordance with its most important role when it is being affected by social and political factors.

The question that has always been on my mind in respect of the cultural shaping of expressions of suffering and illness in our modern consumerist information heavy world is this: Is it feasible or desirable to fully accept and embrace the fact that academics, researchers, clinicians, and the media construct and shape psychological illness and to move towards actively promoting (advertising?) more benign forms of illness?

Now I obviously don't subscribe to the idea that all manifestations of psychopathology are merely chosen communications which are socially constructed. I fully recognise that many are symptoms of personal attempts to resolve difficulties in being, and others are due to cognitive, emotional, behavioural, physical, and social deficiencies.

If the DSM or ICD didn't exist we would have to invent them. There is nothing inherent in such texts and conceptual categories which prevents any clinician ever from treating a client from an existential humanistic perspective. The key is to be able to switch between the perception of the phenomenological human being and the meaningfulness of diagnosis.

One cannot see the human being and whatever psychiatric nomenclature one is applying concurrently, one has to switch between them. RD Laing explained it as being like those Gestalt foreground/background perceptual illusions where a picture looks like a vase if you consider the black to be the foreground but the profile of a person's face if you consider the black to be the background (http://img.sparknotes.com/101s/psychology/05.11.face.vase.jpg). One cannot see both at the same time, our perception switches between them.

People who like to bash psychiatry or psychology or psychotherapy erroneously believe that such practitioners cannot see the human being if they see the diagnosis, or cannot see the face if they see the vase. But let's be honest. By and large we are talking about highly intelligent people who devote many years of full time study to their vocation, and who likely got into it in order to help people. They can see the person. It's just difficult to imagine for those who can't see the diagnosis that it's possible to be attend to both. It is, just not at exactly the same time.

I think there would be a lot more suffering if taxonomies of mental illness didn't exist and people didn't specialise in helping certain populations. It's a lot better than gross categories such as "happy" and "unhappy".

Anyway that's probably more than enough on that topic on a hypnosis site, and I'm not a psychiatrist, they can defend their own system :)



sion stephens said:

yeah that too what you think of the dsm itself as a way of diagnosing mental health.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Mohammed Magsi on September 6, 2010 at 10:49am

Hi Sion,

One of my colleague is a counsellor working with addicts and he has integrated his hypnosis and NLP skills into his practise quite successfully. I personally felt that I could offer more to my clients with hypnosis and NLP then counselling. I would be interested to know how you got on and what your thoughts are about these two therapies.

Mohammed

sion stephens said:

Thanks for your message mohammed.
It is quite interesting that you have left counselling to follow with nlp and hypnotherapy. I too am taking part in a hypnotherapy / nlp course later in the year as well as the counselling diploma. Im looking forward to see which way i decide to go once i have the knowledge and expirience.
thanks

Mohammed Magsi said:

Hi Sion,

There are no guarantees that counselling or hypnotherapy can treat depression. But I like the difference between these two different therapies, how depression is looked at and what solution(s) are provided to resolve those issue(s).

The reason I left counselling and continue working as a clinical hypnotherapist and NLP consultant is that:

- Client sees the results are in lesser time then even CBT sessions
- Client doesn't have to re-live her/his depression, pain, negative thoughts

I have treated few clients with depression and no complaints so far. I have seen clients who believed that they had depression and showed the usual clinical signs of depression but in our initial consultation, they realised that their issue were somewhat different then depression.

I hope this answers your question.

Mohammed

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jenny Lynn on September 7, 2010 at 12:05am

I personally feel we need to approach people/clients and mental/health wellbeing integratively. And that is precisely because everyone is so different and what works with one won't work with another. I work according to the modality of someone who presents to me which requires sensitivity and some intuition. That means that I can work fairly aggressively with someone who will respond best to that approach and very carefully with someone who responds best to that. This necessarily brings up transference issues which are useful in the therapy room as a way of highlighting habitual behaviours of our clients and of course, of bringing to our own awareness how we operate too.

The central issue for me is to try and identify a client's internal conflict. HOW I do that is entirely according to who they are and what kind of dramas they try to play with me in the therapy room. I just occasionally need someone to show me MY dramas so that I can see theirs more clearly in return!

Best wishes
Jenny
www.readyourclient.com


Mohammed Magsi said:

Hi Sion,

One of my colleague is a counsellor working with addicts and he has integrated his hypnosis and NLP skills into his practise quite successfully. I personally felt that I could offer more to my clients with hypnosis and NLP then counselling. I would be interested to know how you got on and what your thoughts are about these two therapies.

Mohammed

sion stephens said:

Thanks for your message mohammed.
It is quite interesting that you have left counselling to follow with nlp and hypnotherapy. I too am taking part in a hypnotherapy / nlp course later in the year as well as the counselling diploma. Im looking forward to see which way i decide to go once i have the knowledge and expirience.
thanks

Mohammed Magsi said:

Hi Sion,

There are no guarantees that counselling or hypnotherapy can treat depression. But I like the difference between these two different therapies, how depression is looked at and what solution(s) are provided to resolve those issue(s).

The reason I left counselling and continue working as a clinical hypnotherapist and NLP consultant is that:

- Client sees the results are in lesser time then even CBT sessions
- Client doesn't have to re-live her/his depression, pain, negative thoughts

I have treated few clients with depression and no complaints so far. I have seen clients who believed that they had depression and showed the usual clinical signs of depression but in our initial consultation, they realised that their issue were somewhat different then depression.

I hope this answers your question.

Mohammed

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Henxy on September 7, 2010 at 12:14am

A beautiful post.

Jenny Lynn said:

I personally feel we need to approach people/clients and mental/health wellbeing integratively. And that is precisely because everyone is so different and what works with one won't work with another. I work according to the modality of someone who presents to me which requires sensitivity and some intuition. That means that I can work fairly aggressively with someone who will respond best to that approach and very carefully with someone who responds best to that. This necessarily brings up transference issues which are useful in the therapy room as a way of highlighting habitual behaviours of our clients and of course, of bringing to our own awareness how we operate too.

The central issue for me is to try and identify a client's internal conflict. HOW I do that is entirely according to who they are and what kind of dramas they try to play with me in the therapy room. I just occasionally need someone to show me MY dramas so that I can see theirs more clearly in return!

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