Derren Brown

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Permalink Reply by Connor Wyatt on December 12, 2009 at 12:01pm

Also do any of you know how he influences people's thoughts? I mean when he makes people think of something without mentioning that object.

Is it conversational hypnosis?

Conca

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Permalink Reply by Ryan Mooney on December 12, 2009 at 12:11pm

I found him on youtube on accident a few months back. I was searching for NLP videos when I came across him with that actor (SImon something) where he makes him want the bicycle. At that point I was hooked. I devoured all the videos and that's when I discovered convo hypnosis. I think he's amazing, but I've seen some people discredit him. I particularly like the video of him on the train making people forget their stops. I'd like to learn how to do that. I've seen other videos of people forgetting numbers and their names. It would make for a cool bar trick.

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Permalink Reply by Connor Wyatt on December 12, 2009 at 12:18pm

Yeah I love the train one too! Have you seen the blank paper one where he pays for stuff with blank paper?

I agree that some people do discredit him but I think it's envy because he is very modest and you will have noticed that he didn't cut the part where he failed on the train out of the final video.

To be honest I've seen a few videos where he fails and you know he is so gracious as well he just goes and does it again! But he doesn't cut it out of the video like most people would.

Some of the things he does are just amazing though.

Conca

(BTW the actor's name is Simon Pegg if you wanted to know)

Ryan Mooney said:

I found him on youtube on accident a few months back. I was searching for NLP videos when I came across him with that actor (SImon something) where he makes him want the bicycle. At that point I was hooked. I devoured all the videos and that's when I discovered convo hypnosis. I think he's amazing, but I've seen some people discredit him. I particularly like the video of him on the train making people forget their stops. I'd like to learn how to do that. I've seen other videos of people forgetting numbers and their names. It would make for a cool bar trick.

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Permalink Reply by Ryan Mooney on December 12, 2009 at 12:20pm

I think you're talking of the video with simon and the bike. It's NLP. Watch it again and listen to his language. He "Bikes" gifts for people. Some people want a "Bm..Xbox". I think they give a rundown of how it's done at the end of the video. However, there's alot more that goes into it. If you look at the room they're in everything resembles a bike or the tires on a bike. It's all very subliminal and has to be done slickly. I think it's really both NLP and convo hypnosis. I'll have to watch it again. He just basically uses different language patterns, words with double meanings, and words that sound the same, but are hard to catch when listening. It's a little bit of confusion patterns too. Have you seen Tricks of the Mind? I love the cab driver part! I think it's hilarious. That's confusion patterns and pattern interrupts. If you're interested in convo hypno, I recommend (as novice as I am :), Igor Ledochowski's The Power of Conversational Hypnosis. It'll explain alot of what Derren does. I can now watch him and understand what, why, and how he does what he does.

Conca said:

Also do any of you know how he influences people's thoughts? I mean when he makes people think of something without mentioning that object.

Is it conversational hypnosis?

Conca

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Permalink Reply by Ryan Mooney on December 12, 2009 at 12:52pm

Yeah, I saw that one too. Pattern interrupts are great. I'm sure there's probably alot of times when he failed, but they leave in one or two just to show that it's not going to work everytime. The only video I had an issue with is the one where he's supposedly invisible. I don't know that I buy it. My favorite is still the train. In order for something like that to work I believe the person needs to kind of be in a trance already. If you notice in the video, the people it worked on were the one's who were reading or just kind of zoned out. He interrupted them, then went into his pattern. I take a bus to work every morning and I just watch the people and in the morning especially, (6am) people are completely zoned out in their own world. That makes me wonder, what time of day did he do this? Because I've noticed on the ride home at 4pm, people are awake, talking, excited to be off work, etc... I wonder if it would work as well in the afternoon?

Conca said:

Yeah I love the train one too! Have you seen the blank paper one where he pays for stuff with blank paper?

I agree that some people do discredit him but I think it's envy because he is very modest and you will have noticed that he didn't cut the part where he failed on the train out of the final video.

To be honest I've seen a few videos where he fails and you know he is so gracious as well he just goes and does it again! But he doesn't cut it out of the video like most people would.

Some of the things he does are just amazing though.

Conca

(BTW the actor's name is Simon Pegg if you wanted to know)

Ryan Mooney said:

I found him on youtube on accident a few months back. I was searching for NLP videos when I came across him with that actor (SImon something) where he makes him want the bicycle. At that point I was hooked. I devoured all the videos and that's when I discovered convo hypnosis. I think he's amazing, but I've seen some people discredit him. I particularly like the video of him on the train making people forget their stops. I'd like to learn how to do that. I've seen other videos of people forgetting numbers and their names. It would make for a cool bar trick.

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Permalink Reply by Ryan Mooney on December 12, 2009 at 12:57pm

Really? I'm in the USA and as far as I know we don't get his shows here. Maybe on BBC channel. I've only ever watched him on youtube and I downloaded tricks of the mind. I've read a bit from his books and I do agree, he is a bit strange, but nonetheless I love what he does. I'm still waiting for the American version of him, but have yet to see one. I'm hoping that nobody claims that spot until I do... LOL!

Scott Brown said:

Hi Conca,

I meet Derren Brown a few time and he was OK until he disappeared in a gents toilet with a puff and reappeared weird. As a result his shows have got creepy, strange and unentertaining.

Warmest Regards

Scott

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Permalink Reply by Connor Wyatt on December 12, 2009 at 1:59pm

I agree that he is not a hypnotist and he is a magician but this by no means means that he doesn't use hypnotic techniques or any NLP techniques. I know he has slated NLP in the past but he definitely uses hypnotic techniques, e.g. embedded commands, subliminal messages etc.

Conca

Scott Brown said:

Hi Ryan,

Derren Brown, although has studied NLP does not use it to produce his effects. Hes a mentalist and mentalist tricks are centuries old and predate NLP which Derren Brown is pretty dismissive off.

He describes it if I remember right as, consisting part common sense, part useful techniques and part useless new age mumbo jumbo. Well something like that.

What you got to remember hes a magician, not a NLP practitioner or hypnotist. Although he did for a small while preform stage hypnosis.

Warmest Regards

Scott

Ryan Mooney said:

I think you're talking of the video with simon and the bike. It's NLP. Watch it again and listen to his language. He "Bikes" gifts for people. Some people want a "Bm..Xbox". I think they give a rundown of how it's done at the end of the video. However, there's alot more that goes into it. If you look at the room they're in everything resembles a bike or the tires on a bike. It's all very subliminal and has to be done slickly. I think it's really both NLP and convo hypnosis. I'll have to watch it again. He just basically uses different language patterns, words with double meanings, and words that sound the same, but are hard to catch when listening. It's a little bit of confusion patterns too. Have you seen Tricks of the Mind? I love the cab driver part! I think it's hilarious. That's confusion patterns and pattern interrupts. If you're interested in convo hypno, I recommend (as novice as I am :), Igor Ledochowski's The Power of Conversational Hypnosis. It'll explain alot of what Derren does. I can now watch him and understand what, why, and how he does what he does.

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Permalink Reply by Ryan Mooney on December 12, 2009 at 2:10pm

Yeah, you are correct. Thanks for the correction. I heard him talk about NLP and how he only uses certain aspects of it like state changing and some others that I can't think of off hand. I do have audio of him discussing magic, memory, and hypnosis. He explains in the hypnosis portion why he kind of got out of it due to a girl who was obviously very drunk. He breaks down an induction, very simply though, and heeds warnings (such as the drunk girl). I still think, though, that he does use a bit of convo hypnosis. I don't think to necessarily induce a trance, but to interrupt patterns of thought. The best example of this is probably the cab driver in tricks of the mind. But I do agree, he's more of a mentalist and magician than anything. I think you're he's right about the NLP, though. I have studied it and it is more or less common sense and useful techniques (changing state/behaviours, outcomes, etc...). However, I have found some people making some outrageous claims for NLP that seem to me to be just a little bit outlandish. But, if it has worked for them then they should continue to do what works. I've read alot of Anthony Robbins stuff and he's picked out probably the best of what NLP has to offer (in my opinion of course) and based alot of his work around it. He's tweeked some things and changed the name from NLP to NAC (Neuro Associatve Conditioning).
Thanks again for the clarification. I've always found it best to learn from mistakes, as long as they are appropriately corrected.

Ryan

Scott Brown said:

Hi Ryan,

Derren Brown, although has studied NLP does not use it to produce his effects. Hes a mentalist and mentalist tricks are centuries old and predate NLP which Derren Brown is pretty dismissive off.

He describes it if I remember right as, consisting part common sense, part useful techniques and part useless new age mumbo jumbo. Well something like that.

What you got to remember hes a magician, not a NLP practitioner or hypnotist. Although he did for a small while preform stage hypnosis.

Warmest Regards

Scott

Ryan Mooney said:

I think you're talking of the video with simon and the bike. It's NLP. Watch it again and listen to his language. He "Bikes" gifts for people. Some people want a "Bm..Xbox". I think they give a rundown of how it's done at the end of the video. However, there's alot more that goes into it. If you look at the room they're in everything resembles a bike or the tires on a bike. It's all very subliminal and has to be done slickly. I think it's really both NLP and convo hypnosis. I'll have to watch it again. He just basically uses different language patterns, words with double meanings, and words that sound the same, but are hard to catch when listening. It's a little bit of confusion patterns too. Have you seen Tricks of the Mind? I love the cab driver part! I think it's hilarious. That's confusion patterns and pattern interrupts. If you're interested in convo hypno, I recommend (as novice as I am :), Igor Ledochowski's The Power of Conversational Hypnosis. It'll explain alot of what Derren does. I can now watch him and understand what, why, and how he does what he does.

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Permalink Reply by Connor Wyatt on December 12, 2009 at 2:19pm

Mind you he describes hypnosis as just a state of compliance and he says that is is just acted out. I don't know how he can say that because he obviously knows how powerful it is.

And I heard about that, supposedly he gave a suggestion that she would feel a huge electric shock, which was quite silly really.

It turned out she was epileptic and the shock triggered a fit off.

Conca

Ryan Mooney said:

Yeah, you are correct. Thanks for the correction. I heard him talk about NLP and how he only uses certain aspects of it like state changing and some others that I can't think of off hand. I do have audio of him discussing magic, memory, and hypnosis. He explains in the hypnosis portion why he kind of got out of it due to a girl who was obviously very drunk. He breaks down an induction, very simply though, and heeds warnings (such as the drunk girl). I still think, though, that he does use a bit of convo hypnosis. I don't think to necessarily induce a trance, but to interrupt patterns of thought. The best example of this is probably the cab driver in tricks of the mind. But I do agree, he's more of a mentalist and magician than anything. I think you're he's right about the NLP, though. I have studied it and it is more or less common sense and useful techniques (changing state/behaviours, outcomes, etc...). However, I have found some people making some outrageous claims for NLP that seem to me to be just a little bit outlandish. But, if it has worked for them then they should continue to do what works. I've read alot of Anthony Robbins stuff and he's picked out probably the best of what NLP has to offer (in my opinion of course) and based alot of his work around it. He's tweeked some things and changed the name from NLP to NAC (Neuro Associatve Conditioning).
Thanks again for the clarification. I've always found it best to learn from mistakes, as long as they are appropriately corrected. Ryan

Scott Brown said:

Hi Ryan,

Derren Brown, although has studied NLP does not use it to produce his effects. Hes a mentalist and mentalist tricks are centuries old and predate NLP which Derren Brown is pretty dismissive off.

He describes it if I remember right as, consisting part common sense, part useful techniques and part useless new age mumbo jumbo. Well something like that.

What you got to remember hes a magician, not a NLP practitioner or hypnotist. Although he did for a small while preform stage hypnosis.

Warmest Regards

Scott

Ryan Mooney said:

I think you're talking of the video with simon and the bike. It's NLP. Watch it again and listen to his language. He "Bikes" gifts for people. Some people want a "Bm..Xbox". I think they give a rundown of how it's done at the end of the video. However, there's alot more that goes into it. If you look at the room they're in everything resembles a bike or the tires on a bike. It's all very subliminal and has to be done slickly. I think it's really both NLP and convo hypnosis. I'll have to watch it again. He just basically uses different language patterns, words with double meanings, and words that sound the same, but are hard to catch when listening. It's a little bit of confusion patterns too. Have you seen Tricks of the Mind? I love the cab driver part! I think it's hilarious. That's confusion patterns and pattern interrupts. If you're interested in convo hypno, I recommend (as novice as I am :), Igor Ledochowski's The Power of Conversational Hypnosis. It'll explain alot of what Derren does. I can now watch him and understand what, why, and how he does what he does.

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Permalink Reply by James Hazlerig on December 12, 2009 at 2:43pm

I see that most of the old-timers here have not joined in on this thread, and I suspect it's because they've all said this a bunch of times:

It's important to remember that Derren Brown prefaces all of his TV shows by saying that he uses (among other things) misdirection.

If you're hoping to understand what he does, look for misdirection first.

Yes, some of his work may involve hypnosis, some may involve NLP-like techniques, and some may involve clever psychology. But a lot of it is stage magic made to *look* like hypnosis, NLP, and psychology. By throwing in some of those three now and then, he makes people look for that before they look for misdirection. Likewise, by showing times when it appears not to work, he's again misdirecting your attention. The man's brilliant--as a performer and mentalist.

But let's take a look at some of his skits. (BTW, I'm familiar with them from a show that aired on the Scifi Channel (now SyFy) called "Mind Control." It was a mish-mash of highlights from his British shows along with new material filmed in the States.)

Consider the "boxing gym" skit, in which he appears to hypnotize very strong boxers into being unable to lift a woman they were previously able to lift. A petite blonde in sweats and a tee-shirt, she appears to be a member of the gym. A burly boxer is able to lift her easily on the first try. Then she steps out of the way, so that Brown can place his hand on the boxer's neck and stare into the man's eyes, saying, "In a moment, you will NOT be able to lift her. She is too heavy to lift." Then the mentalist circles behind the boxer and dramatically holds his arm out saying, "Wait, wait! Now, try to lift her!" The girl steps in, and the boxer struggles and strains before failing to lift the woman.

Brown brilliantly directs our attention away from what is really happening. First, he uses stereotypes of hypnosis that anyone knows--staring in the eyes, dressing flamboyantly. Then, for those of us in the know, he throws in terms like "try" and "wait," which could be interpreted as "weight." So folks like us are watching him, awed by his technique, and we miss the real trick. Second, the woman appears to be a volunteer from the gym, based on her clothes. Viewers assume she is. But there are a few details that suggest she's not. As she walks up to the boxer, one of the onlooking athletes catcalls her. Now, if she's someone who regularly worked out at that gym, I'm betting that wouldn't happen. Also, her tee-shirt has the number "69" on the front in a huge athletic shirt font. Does the man know misdirection or what? Any boxer or viewer not busy looking at Brown's dramatic performance is thinking about the subtle suggestion on the girl's shirt, and perhaps looking at what's under them.

If you want to know what is happening, look at her feet. On the first lift, they are close to the boxer. On the second lift, they are farther away. That makes all the difference. She is a plant, and the whole trick relies on her footwork.

Brown also has the most powerful illusion-making tool in the world at his disposal--the TV camera. We know that TV shows create illusions. We accept that if one shot of someone walking up a staircase is followed by a shot of them entering a room, the room is at the top of the staircase, and mere seconds have passed between the shots. These assumptions occur at an unconscious level, so we don't question them. But hours can pass in between. People can be hypnotized and fractionated, post-hypnotic suggestions planted, and so on.

When we see Brown asking for volunteers on the street and being rejected time after time, we assume the person who does join him is someone random off the street, even though we haven't seen him ask that individual. Watch the camera cuts in his shows--they're brilliant.

Of course, the ultimate deception is simply to hire actors. The fact that Brown says he doesn't is, ahem, more misdirection.

Watch the camera angles in some of his "pay with fake money" skits. Some of the shots are from behind the shop counter! Do you really think the shopkeeper didn't know what was happening?

Hey, I love watching Derren Brown work--but don't be fooled into thinking that his work is a documentary on hypnosis. Anything on video can be faked, and the man is in the business of illusions.

James

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Permalink Reply by Connor Wyatt on December 12, 2009 at 2:51pm

I have to disagree, watch it again and you'll see that the camera is outside the shop looking through the glass, and the other angle could easily be another "customer" or one of the staff could have been in on it. It wouldn't be that hard.

Conca

James Hazlerig said:

Watch the camera angles in some of his "pay with fake money" skits. Some of the shots are from behind the shop counter! Do you really think the shopkeeper didn't know what was happening?

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Permalink Reply by Antonio on December 12, 2009 at 2:53pm

I really really enjoy some of Derren Brown's material. I have been a fan of magic ever since I was quite young, and interested in hypnosis at an even younger age (around 8 or 9 years old?). Its been pointed out to me that Derren is a an entertainer first and foremost. Basically he uses the guise of hypnosis/nlp as a misdirection to what he is actually doing. There are some obvious things that he uses hypnosis for (getting that guy drunk, having that kid feel as if he had a toothache, etc).

The one that I really found entertaining is when he has an announcement at the mall and everyone raises their hand. Pesonally I feel that he probably pre-hypnotized a few people before hand (10 or 15 or whatever) and gave them post hypnotic suggestions that when they heard a certain command their arms would raise up. How does this explain everyone else raising their hands? "Social proof"

"Social proof, also known as informational social influence, is a psychological phenomenon that occurs in ambiguous social situations when people are unable to determine the appropriate mode of behavior. Making the assumption that surrounding people possess more knowledge about the situation, they will deem the behavior of others as appropriate or better informed."

Also, I'd like to see the video where he supposedly messes up. Can you link me up in here?

EDIT: When he states that he uses hypnosis/nlp/trickery, etc. he's already setting up the misdirection. Those familiar with hypnosis/nlp/etc. will start to look for it, sometimes totally missing what he is doing. As soon as I remembered that I forgot to add this, I saw James explanation - BRILLIANT!

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