Everything happens for a reason...

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Bonnie Robinson on June 4, 2009 at 8:43am

I agree with everything you've said Susan.

Susan French said:

Hi Steve,

I agree with your ideas...very much.

Maybe we don't have the same idea of what "everything happens for a reason" means.

My own beliefs (which are not really beliefs, they are the closest guess I can achieve right now in my life) were formed in an agnostic/atheist household. Later in life I had a spiritual awakening that let me come to an idea that there is a Higher Force/Intelligence/Source/Resource/Consciousness.

I somehow don't believe that there's a guy in the sky with a long white beard who decides who's naughty and who's nice, or who gets and who doesn't, etc.

I don't believe there's a divine plan in the traditional way, therefore, I don't believe that things happen for a reason, at least not very often.

I tend to believe that this universal energy source works more like the Buddhists and the Quantum Physics/Mechanics guys believe (if you haven't seen"What the Bleep do We Know," take the time to see it. You won't be sorry, I promise).

I think that we may decide many of our life's lessons before we are born and that there's a decent case for reincarnation. (At least the thought of reincarnation calms me when I think about death, so it works for me.)

Joe: she attempted suicide a number of times and she is still frequently suicidal. She's beginning to have memories come up (after two years) of his attempting to molest her. Her mother watched her like a hawk because they lived with the disgusting pig monster when she was little. Remember, her father was also her grandfather.

If you give it some thought you'll realize that her conflict is: if I hate him and wish him dead, then it somehow invalidates my birth and existence. If she has feelings like that she wished he had not hurt her mother, that would mean that she wished she was not in existence. Pretty damn tough existential feelings.

My point, though, is that I couldn't imagine this kind of scenario being planned by any divine source. The closest I can get is that there might have been some monstrous lesson to be learned bc the victim had inflicted similar misery on someone else.

I understand and agree that when confronted with this kind of scenario you have to do your best to "reframe" or try to find a perspective that softens the hurt, anger, feelings of betrayal and unfairness in some way. Having gone through some really hard things in my own life, coming from a dysfunctional background but nothing like this, and some really difficult problems myself, I came to the conclusion that I wouldn't be who I am if not for those experiences. I wouldn't have my insight, compassion, understanding.

However, those words and ideas seem hollow when I try to say them to someone who is still in agony over their life battles.

Here is the closest I've gotten to some kind of perspective to help people move on:

Sometimes I cry with them. Sometimes I hold them while they cry or rage. I always say how sorry I am that they are in that kind of pain. I say things like: I know that I can't even begin to imagine what it has been like for you.

Then, when the pain passes a little from being released, I've found it most practical and helpful to say something like: what happened to you was horrible. Your feelings are natural and valid. However, if you can't find a way to put it in the past, see it in the past, feel it in the past and no longer affecting you, YOU are the one who still suffers, every day, in fact. The person (who hurt you) doesn't care, obviously. But everyday that you live in anger, rage, sorrow, despair, feelings of betrayal and violation, you are the one who continues to suffer daily.

Then I find every way possible to help them to see that it was in the past. Some people advocate forgiveness. I find in the worst cases, the person may be unwilling to forgive and I'm not so sure it's the right thing to ask. I think it's more reasonable to ask them to start thinking about releasing their emotional attachment to what happened. Surrendering to the horribleness of it and moving on. Accepting that it DID happen, that it was horrible, and begin to let go of it.

I've found this to be more acceptable to people who are still in a great deal of pain and confusion. I find this idea is helpful for the smallest hurt and the largest. In this way they can also begin to let go of any anger at themselves, any doubt, any feelings of responsibility or guilt.

In other words, whether you stub your toe or you lose a child or are losing your life, if you focus on how to let go and accept that it happened, letting the problem be in the past, it can be accomplished more easily, I think, than constructing a benefit. The feeling of benefit comes after the letting go. At least, I think so.

Just some thoughts.

Susan

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Permalink Reply by Joe K Fobes on June 4, 2009 at 9:27am

Fable Goodman said:

JoeK said:

Nononono

I'm advocating that the insult, disrespect, and temper police have a seat and simply let it be.

I was figuring that if we reframe the insults then it might be possible that the insultees would stop accepting them, chill out, and let the chips fall where they may.BR>
Joe

Thanks Joe,

I'm all in favour of letting things drop where they may. (you should see the state of my kitchen floor!)
If anyone come in and says "my god, look at the state of your kitchen.."
I just smile and say "thanks!"

If they say "how did it get in such a mess?"

I'll just tell them "everything happens for a reason... perhaps the kitchen got in that state, so that you would have a chance to critisize, and feel superior"

With a bit of luck, I might be able to persuade them to tidy up for me and wash the dishes.

Love and hugs, (from a very lazy)

Fable

Exactly!

If you chose to have your kitchen look that way, either because you're lazy, or for some other reason, then it's not really their business! So to get them to keep quiet and quit annoying everyone and ruining the party, you might reframe it and tell them that you have a very good reason to leave it like that...... Heck, anything to stop the annoyance....

Couldn't of put it better myself......

Joe

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Permalink Reply by Fable Goodman on June 4, 2009 at 10:23am

Thanks Joe,

you are welcome in my humble hovel anytime.

Love and hugs,

Fable

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Permalink Reply by Susan French on June 5, 2009 at 4:46am

Steve,

I hear what you're saying. I don't sit and sob with them but sometimes tears come to my eyes. Maybe it's the difference between men and women. From everything I've studied on gender differences (socialized AND biologically-driven), we women talk through our emotions to our solution and you guys tend more to withdraw, figure it out, and then talk about it.

I don't see responding in an empathetic way as reinforcing their trauma or encouraging so-called secondary gain (an idea that is not without merit but an idea which is far too easy for the professional to use to blame the client for not "getting it"). This is another conversation.

I definitely agree with Conrad that a "buck up and make the lemonade" glibness is fine for usual life junk. For depth of pain and trauma that has no emotionally logical "reason," THAT attempt to relieve pain helps the helper more than it helps the person in pain.

Yes, I sometimes hold them while they cry and rage. I realize that in mainstream thought human response is often disavowed but if a person in my chair erupts in pain, I'm not going to sit like a stick-up-the-butt psychoanalyst and say: "And how does that make you feel?" But, it's a moment by moment, person by person thing.

And I think it's just as valid as pounding some pillow. Relief from pain and trauma is not only about anger. It's about finally feeling the wellspring of pain, anger, rage and grief and letting it out because the problems they came to us to work on are usually coming from these submerged feelings that the client has not yet been able to feel and face.

I certainly would not confront a client as you did but perhaps its style. I would never go to a male therapist again. I've never found one who understood or could help me shift my perspectives like a woman. However, don't get me wrong: I've been to enough dud women therapists and other professionals also.

Perhaps you can see that women more often vent their way to insight and men more often do it intellectually. So, that is a distinction that you might want to consider.

All I can tell you is that the clients that I work with who hang in until they reach that pain get better.

What I don't presume to do is to decide that its time for the client to suck it up and face the truth. I'm more of a baby-step person. Coming out of denial is a gradual process for most people. If you shove their faces in it, sometimes they'll make the leap but most of the time, it's too much at one time, they bolt.

Truthfully, if a therapist or doctor (or any professional) takes the view that they know what's best for me, I'm outta there. And I have been. I've turned on my heel many a time when some jerk thought it was time for me to "buck up" and do it "his way." I ALWAYS work through my problems but I do it on my own timetable...the timetable that I feel in my own body and soul. And I get "better" (whatever "better" is).

I find that being in alignment and empathy with where the client is puts me in a better position to guide them than if I take charge and push them. In my own life experiences, if I feel unheard or un-understood by someone who is telling me what to do, I get angry and I get resistant...and if they don't knock it off and take the cotton out of the ears and stuff it in their mouths, I'm gone in a heartbeat. But then...I don't respond well to authoritative approaches in anything. Hear me and enlist my cooperation and I'll be there to the end. Push me and I become immovable. I find that most clients respond the same way.

But back to our topic: I find that 3/4 of my practice are women (I think that's standard). I don't know about you guys, but women need to feel heard and understood. I guess my point is that a client isn't going to follow directions if they don't feel heard and understood or do the harder work. People in great emotional pain already feel isolated,alienated and alone. I just wouldn't take the chance to make them feel more that way so I could assert my own views.

Isn't that we mean when we talk about "rapport"? Erickson also said to the schizo patient who thought he was Jesus "I hear you are a carpenter." You meet the client/patient in his world...at least that has been my training.

Again, just thoughts.

Susan





Steve Andrade said:

Hi Susan,
I agree with how you actknowledge and validate things, but I don't believe in the crying with them, I think that re enforces that they should continue to suffer, if I wasn't interested in helping them, then crying with them would definitely make them feel better as it reinforces the need to suffer and the pleasure we get with sympathy.
I don't want to criticize everything you wrote even though I do agree with a lot of it....and I would be happy to if you want, and I might if I can find time later, but I wanted to add something that I think is also important.

One of the things that I feel is so important and I learned this from having an interest in Milton Erickson, is to some way show people, in trance or even not in a formal trance, that they are control of their behavior, consciously or unconsciously and there are many ways to do this.

I once recieved a phone call from a lady who was hurting from a breakup, I don't remember if this was before she was a client or after, but I asked her, on a scale of 1 to ten, where her pain is, and she said, "I don't want to here about your f'en scale," so I said I can't communicate with you at your present mindset, where are you on the scale? She said alright, (the minute she said alright, I knew it was going to be ok), I'm at 10....I said bullsh*t, if you were at ten, you wouldn't even be able to talk to me like this, really where are you, she said 7. I said ok, now take it to 8 or 9 then as soon as she took it there, whether she did or not, I then told her to bring down to 5 so we can talk, I knew all she wanted to do was vent, so I used that to show her she had control…..and….when this is shown to them, it starts the process of change if that is what is wanted.

Another example: when Milton Erickson told the woman who was seeing him for weight loss, to gain 15 pounds and then come back.

I don’t have that confidence yet in communication with the unconscious to have someone put on weight, but what he was showing was that she has control over her weight. Would that work for everyone? Hell no. But in showing someone they have control over something, it gives them the power that they have always had.

You can even tell a story or a guided imagery metaphor story with or without a purpose and the minute you see them following your story, they become very present, and the more present they are, the further their pain is from their conscious mind…..and to just point out that it is known by them at some level how to set their suffering aside……now let’s work on doing it on purpose, let’s do it for 5 seconds and you can have them describe the surroundings….what do they see right now, what do they here right now. Baby steps.

Once the pattern is altered, it can be changed.

Steve

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Permalink Reply by Susan French on June 5, 2009 at 4:53am

Antonio,

Could you explain what you mean by "everything happens for a reason?

I asked that in an earlier post bc I think that we may be speaking in apples and oranges. ARe you saying that you can find a positive way to use the painful event for growth or are you saying that these things happen by Divine intent?

Thanks,

Susan

Antonio said:

I think most people have misconstrued "everything happens for a reason" as meaning a positive reason. I will always believe everything happens for a reason, and its not always a positive reason. I personally feel that its wise to help the clients grieve, and allow them to see an alternative viewpoint...possibly threw metaphor and what not.

Scott Brown said:

Hi Antonio,

“Everything happens for a reason” that the stuff-ageing hippy and ambulance chasing lawyers come out with.

The trick to dealing with life problems is to learn to be indifferent to suffering and hardship. Attempting to put a positive spin on something does not make it better and seldoms helps.

Coming to terms with the understand that nothing is forever as change is part life and when things do change its usually never for the better will usually help keep one from going goo goo gaa gaa.

Warmest Regards

Scott

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Permalink Reply by Susan French on June 5, 2009 at 4:56am

Geez Scott. I'm sure glad I don't live in your world. I guess I'm an aging hippy. I think that indifference requires that you harden your spirit and I find that when you soften your spirit and come to a gentle acceptance that life includes tough times, life is much easier to deal with.

Susan French said:

Antonio,

Could you explain what you mean by "everything happens for a reason?

I asked that in an earlier post bc I think that we may be speaking in apples and oranges. ARe you saying that you can find a positive way to use the painful event for growth or are you saying that these things happen by Divine intent?

Thanks,

Susan

Antonio said:

I think most people have misconstrued "everything happens for a reason" as meaning a positive reason. I will always believe everything happens for a reason, and its not always a positive reason. I personally feel that its wise to help the clients grieve, and allow them to see an alternative viewpoint...possibly threw metaphor and what not.

Scott Brown said:

Hi Antonio,

“Everything happens for a reason” that the stuff-ageing hippy and ambulance chasing lawyers come out with.

The trick to dealing with life problems is to learn to be indifferent to suffering and hardship. Attempting to put a positive spin on something does not make it better and seldoms helps.

Coming to terms with the understand that nothing is forever as change is part life and when things do change its usually never for the better will usually help keep one from going goo goo gaa gaa.

Warmest Regards

Scott

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Fable Goodman on June 5, 2009 at 5:36am

Steve Andrade said:

Hi Susan,
I agree with how you actknowledge and validate things, but I don't believe in the crying with them, I think that re enforces that they should continue to suffer, if I wasn't interested in helping them, then crying with them would definitely make them feel better as it reinforces the need to suffer and the pleasure we get with sympathy.
BR>
Steve

HI Steve,

You seem to be making the equation that Crying = Hurting/suffereng.

It is my undertanding/belief/experience, that Crying = Healing of the hurt/ suffering. (particulary when done with a supportive audience.) To attempt to suppress this, by disaproval, reinforces the lies we were socialised into.

The message we were give as young people was "Big boys don't cry!" "stop crying, it will be alright" "don't cry I'm here for you" All serve to shut down the natural healing mechanisms that we were born with. to the point of atrophy... so that most men, would never cry in public or even alone, they have forgot how to, instead, they act strong, and 'Manlike' and bottle it all up.


Empathic listening/support, and even crying with a person can be very healing, as long as your crying does not compete with the client's crying, and steal the attention from them ( ie empathy not sympathy, there isa big difference).

Women have of course experienced this suppresion of the healing mechanisms too, but it comes across in a slightly different way... Girls are allowed to cry (although not encouraged) and to show their fear. But less so as they grow older. But , tey are told that "it is not ladylike to get angry or throw tantrums. So they tend to bottle those feeling up more.

Either way, when feelings/hurts suffering start to find a way out, I do not feel it is helpful to interupt that discharge, and certainly not helpful to reinforce the damaging message that they should not be doing it.

Love and hugs,

Fable

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Permalink Reply by Susan French on June 5, 2009 at 5:53am

Fable

I got a good laugh at your response about your kitchen. I never thought about saying "thanks." That was great.

Fable Goodman said:

JoeK said:

Nononono

I'm advocating that the insult, disrespect, and temper police have a seat and simply let it be.

I was figuring that if we reframe the insults then it might be possible that the insultees would stop accepting them, chill out, and let the chips fall where they may.BR>
Joe

Thanks Joe,

I'm all in favour of letting things drop where they may. (you should see the state of my kitchen floor!)
If anyone come in and says "my god, look at the state of your kitchen.."
I just smile and say "thanks!"

If they say "how did it get in such a mess?"

I'll just tell them "everything happens for a reason... perhaps the kitchen got in that state, so that you would have a chance to critisize, and feel superior"

With a bit of luck, I might be able to persuade them to tidy up for me and wash the dishes.

Love and hugs, (from a very lazy)

Fable

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Susan French on June 5, 2009 at 5:57am

Hi Fable,

As Woody Allen said: "nice girls don't get angry; they just get depressed."

Susan

Fable Goodman said:

Steve Andrade said:

Hi Susan,
I agree with how you actknowledge and validate things, but I don't believe in the crying with them, I think that re enforces that they should continue to suffer, if I wasn't interested in helping them, then crying with them would definitely make them feel better as it reinforces the need to suffer and the pleasure we get with sympathy.
BR>
Steve

HI Steve,

You seem to be making the equation that Crying = Hurting/suffereng.

It is my undertanding/belief/experience, that Crying = Healing of the hurt/ suffering. (particulary when done with a supportive audience.) To attempt to suppress this, by disaproval, reinforces the lies we were socialised into.

The message we were give as young people was "Big boys don't cry!" "stop crying, it will be alright" "don't cry I'm here for you" All serve to shut down the natural healing mechanisms that we were born with. to the point of atrophy... so that most men, would never cry in public or even alone, they have forgot how to, instead, they act strong, and 'Manlike' and bottle it all up.


Empathic listening/support, and even crying with a person can be very healing, as long as your crying does not compete with the client's crying, and steal the attention from them ( ie empathy not sympathy, there isa big difference).

Women have of course experienced this suppresion of the healing mechanisms too, but it comes across in a slightly different way... Girls are allowed to cry (although not encouraged) and to show their fear. But less so as they grow older. But , tey are told that "it is not ladylike to get angry or throw tantrums. So they tend to bottle those feeling up more.

Either way, when feelings/hurts suffering start to find a way out, I do not feel it is helpful to interupt that discharge, and certainly not helpful to reinforce the damaging message that they should not be doing it.

Love and hugs,

Fable

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Fable Goodman on June 5, 2009 at 6:02am

Thanks Susan,

I have today Fixed My Hoptoint top loader which has not been agitating or spinning for about a month now. Ithough it was the drive belt, but turned out a part (the inertia drive) had dropped off, the nut had worked it's way loose with vibratrion.
So I put it back together.


I have put 26 undrpants (briefs) in and hey came out clean. I've hung them up and have refilled it with about fifty dirty socks. Fortunately I have plenty so that I can wait till they are all ready, and then do a full wash for each category.
Towels next, and then the world!

LOve and hugs,

Fable

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Susan French on June 5, 2009 at 7:13am

Supremely right answer IM(Not So)HO.

Help them find the resources to let go of the past and move forward. What are some ways we might do that, specifically?

The only one I've been able to come up with is that to relive the event is self-defeating and they continue to suffer.

Are there other ways to help these guys release their hold on the past?

Why do any of us hold onto the past when we're hurt or angry?

These days, when I catch myself licking old wounds, I DO take a look to see if I'm hanging on old stuff to: 1) feel woeful and righteous in my anger and victimization, 2) keep myself from getting whacked by that person again (ie, keeping distance), 3) to have a reason to feel angry (because in my household we used anger to vent about more personal stuff we didn't want to face).

But there are deeper dimensions to "holding on to old hurts." Sometimes I hang onto old stuff because I never felt heard or acknowledged and I don't know how to grieve and let go. Sometimes I hang onto old stuff because my unheard suffering can't be released until I feel somehow validated or acknowledged?????

????

I dunno. I think if we look more deeply into why people hold on to old hurts, we'll have a better handle on how to help them let go.

Susan



Conrad Cook said:

How would you help these people?

By helping them find the resources to make do, and to go on to lead fulfilling human lives.

The 17 year old, for example, needs to grieve. Similarly the mother needs to mourn her son. I don't think it's necessary or useful to try to persuade these people that the deaths in their family happened for a reason and that it serves them, which is a belief Tony Robbins endorses and has popularized in the motivational context. I don't know what he'd say in these contexts.

It's the criticism I have of a lot of the motivational stuff. It's fine and useful for handling the usual bullshit of life, but there are cases where the "make lemons into lemonade" bit just doesn't cut it. And in those cases, one's job is to endure.


Conrad.

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Permalink Reply by Susan French on June 5, 2009 at 8:20am

Fable, you made me laugh...my most favorite thing in the whole world to do.

It's amazing how those damned fix-it things just sit there and never fix themselves and go on bugging us while we're busy doing more important things like thinking....lol.

Love and hugs to you always,

Susan

ps: if you're feeling lazy, you probably need to be lazy. When you're done, you'll be done with it and get back into your groove. I always say that I know I'm feeling (physically) better when I start wiping down cupboards and hanging up my clothes. :-)

Fable Goodman said:

Thanks Susan,

I have today Fixed My Hoptoint top loader which has not been agitating or spinning for about a month now. Ithough it was the drive belt, but turned out a part (the inertia drive) had dropped off, the nut had worked it's way loose with vibratrion.
So I put it back together.


I have put 26 undrpants (briefs) in and hey came out clean. I've hung them up and have refilled it with about fifty dirty socks. Fortunately I have plenty so that I can wait till they are all ready, and then do a full wash for each category.
Towels next, and then the world!

LOve and hugs,

Fable

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