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Experience with clients on pain killers?
I have a very nice lady seeing me for chronic pain and she insists on taking Loratabs before she leaves the house to come to me despite my asking her not to. This will be our third visit and I don't have any hope that she will be free of the medication when she comes.
The problem I have found with her is that she is already in a relaxed state. Their would typically be a sharp contrast between normal waking consciousness and deep hypnosis, but while on Loratab, I'm not seeing physical signs that she is where she needs to be.
For instance, after 40 minutes of deepening, I couldn't get any amnesia or anesthesia. Well, she said she couldn't feel me poking her with a toothpick, but I'm not sure she could have felt it anyway because I poked her before she went in and she said she could "kinda" feel it - which is what she said while in hypnosis.
Any advice?
Even though I am really committed to helping people, I don't know if I can help her if she is not sober. Unless, someone has experience and results from continuing therapy with someone on painkillers like Loratab, I'm thinking of making her a CD to use for pain before she usually takes a loratab and telling her not to come back to me until she can get to me without taking the painkiller.
What do you think?
P.S. I've heard Gerald Kein's advice on the subject and HMI's advice which essentially says they have found that you can't work on people under the influence unless it's marijuana or similar.
Thanks in Advance!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Brett Cameron on -
why are you poking your client? :) with a toothpick? particularly if the client is in pain!
but seriously ... I am not familiar with Lorotabs and I ask what is the strength? Maybe you could speak with her Doctor as someone has prescribed her pain relievers and maybe there is a reason. Are you in a position to advise your client NOT to take her pain killers?
tread carefully.
regards
Brett
www.channelled.com.au
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Permalink Reply by Leshem Yosef on -
just info
Lortab® is a medication that is often prescribed for the treatment of moderate to moderately severe pain. It contains two different pain relievers (hydrocodone and acetaminophen [narcotics] ) and is classified as a controlled substance.
The medicine comes in several strengths and is available in the form of tablets or an elixir. Generic versions of the drug are also available. Side effects that have been reported with Lortab include dizziness, nausea, vomiting, and constipation. Before starting treatment with this product, let your healthcare provider know if you have hypothyroidism, an enlarged prostate, kidney disease, liver disease, or any allergies.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Miller on -
Hi Brett,
To test for somnambulism. Anesthesia is a natural byproduct of somnambulism - just like amnesia. I'm not poking her hard. I'm not even leaving an indentation.
This is standard procedure.
Ultra-depth training includes the toothpicks and hemostats. Gerald Kein pinches people really hard in his training. I don't do this all the time, I'm not using hemostats. I'm trying to test for anesthesia and somnambulism. This is also a convincer.
No, I cannot advise my clients not to take pain killers, that's why I'm considering making her a CD to use after she wakes up before she needs to take the Loratab.
The question was ... how do you hypnotize someone who is on Loratabs ... or pain killers ... because they are not responding to hypnosis, or is the answer - you don't?
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Permalink Reply by Michael Miller on
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Well, I exaggerated a little. Maybe not 40 minutes, I'm trying to state my case in a way you can understand.
I don't want her to go to Mars, I want her to go to Cleveland! :)
After I had her in what should have been a profoundly deep state, I had her open her eyes and asked her to tell me my name. She said "Michael" just as fast as if you asked me my name.
Most people aren't good with remembering names. Especially in somnambulism. I can make people forget how they got to my office, the color of their eyes, the month they were born, their name, ect. - and she can remember my name!
I want to help this lady, not take her money. In order to do that, I need to make sure she will receive some benefit from the hypnosis while she is on painkillers ... and I just haven't had pain control clients that were, to my knowledge, on such heavy drugs at the time of hypnosis.
Rudy said:40 minutes of deepening? where do you want her....mars? :-)
No, seriously.... if the side effects are dizziness, nausea, vomiting, and constipation then i cant see
a reason why the client wouldnt go in hypnosis.
I have hypnotized quite some people on painkillers, from light to extreme and they all went deep.....
My experience is that people with pain go extremely well, since they want it so bad.
Some advice: try instants, stick with it while testing and also create more expectancy in the pretalk.
Are you not sure she is in hypnosis then?
Amnesia and Anesthesia work on -most- people in somnambulism by suggestion, but not all.....
Jerry Kein always does the coma-deepener to get them the 'level' where anesthesia is standard (esdaile).
good luck
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Permalink Reply by Henxy on -
Paracetamol isn't a narcotic!
Hydrocodone is a derivative, rather than within the same family of opiates.
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Permalink Reply by Leshem Yosef on
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Wikipedia English - The Free Encyclopedia דפדף
Hydrocodone
Hydrocodone or dihydrocodeinone (marketed as Vicodin, Anexsia, Dicodid, Hycodan (or generically Hydromet), Hycomine, Lorcet, Lortab, Norco, Novahistex, Hydroco, Tussionex, Vicoprofen, Xodol. Bekadid, Calmodid, Codinovo, Duodin, Kolikodol,Orthoxycol, Mercodinone, Synkonin, Norgan,Hydrokon) is a semi-synthetic opioid derived from two of the naturally occurring opiates, codeine and thebaine. Hydrocodone is an orally active narcotic analgesic and antitussive. Sales and production of this drug have increased significantly in recent years, as have diversion and illicit use. Hydrocodone is commonly available in tablet, capsule and syrup form. Hydrocodone was invented in Germany in 1920 and approved by the FDA for use in the US on 27 May 1951.
Henxy said:Paracetamol isn't a narcotic!
Hydrocodone is a derivative, rather than within the same family of opiates.
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Permalink Reply by Anthony Edgington Sr on -
Honesty is always the best policy, so tell her she is preventing you from helping her due to her DEPENDENCE on pills. Frankly it sounds like she is addicted and has no desire to change.
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Permalink Reply by Susan French on -
Hi,
I've worked a lot with substance abuse and all that goes with it and I've also worked a lot with people who come to me for pain and are on meds.
In general, I've found it more difficult to get a person on those kinds of drugs, including alcohol and pot, into a decent state of hypnosis but I've also found that it doesn't have to be an either/or approach.
Melissa Roth and Ron Eslinger have the best pain training that I've studied. I understand that Dan Cleary and Michael Ellner also have a good pain relief program but I haven't personally studied theirs.
Since we know that hypnotic suggestions can be received when the person is awake (waking hypnosis and all advertising), I would tell the client that results can be slower when the hypnosis is given when medicated.
Then, I would let them go to whatever comfortable level they can achieve fairly quickly. As a general practice, I usually do a basic induction and then layer suggestions in with deepening, so the suggestions are going in at different levels of the hypnotic state. Also, if the person is in pain, they are already in hypnosis to a certain degree.
Having dealt a lot with pain and having had a lot of pain in my own life, let me suggest that you be VERY careful of what YOU think the client should do. If pain is so severe that you're exhausted, irritable and, in general, less able to concentrate, you (the person in pain) has to do whatever it takes to get from point A to point Z.
I, personally, have done both. I have used medication when I start becoming dysfunctional and I do a lot of self-hypnosis, both with medication and without. It depends a lot on the time of day because pain gets worse as you become fatigued.
FYI: I've fought my way through pain a number of times in my life. I am now without pain (though I do get synvisc in my knees to reduce inflammation and buffer the cartilege). My first reaction towards someone who diminishes or is insensitive to my plight is to fire them...and I have done that a number of times. They have no business advising me because they have no damned clue.
What seems to work the best to me is to "take the client as he comes." Then do hypnosis pain relief techniques and suggest that he will need less medication less often. Always give suggestions for really good, restorative and healing sleep. These people are always sleep deprived bc the pain wakes them up and disturbs their sleep.
If you can find tolerance in your own attitude towards someone in pain, I would proceed that way: a little more hypnotic pain relief and a little more suggestion for less medication. If you can't find the proper level of compassion and tolerance towards someone in pain, refer the client to someone who can.
The last thing a pain patient needs is judgement from someone who has no clue as to how pervasive pain is and how difficult it can be to control, especially if the cause of the pain has not been corrected or can't be corrected.
My fiddy cent worth
susan
http://www.hypno4success.com/programs/pain-reduction/
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Permalink Reply by Henxy on
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Wiki is written by anyone with an opinion, and is not to be trusted as a source of gospel. That said, PARACETAMOL IS STILL NOT A NARCOTIC!
I realise that you're coming from a non-pharmacological perspective here, and your use of wiki as a source of 'proof' to your point suggests to me that there's no point trying to explain the intricacies of the differences between heavy stuff like morphine, fentanyl, pethidine etc from less active derivatives.
Leshem Yosef said:Wikipedia English - The Free Encyclopedia דפדף
Hydrocodone
Hydrocodone or dihydrocodeinone (marketed as Vicodin, Anexsia, Dicodid, Hycodan (or generically Hydromet), Hycomine, Lorcet, Lortab, Norco, Novahistex, Hydroco, Tussionex, Vicoprofen, Xodol. Bekadid, Calmodid, Codinovo, Duodin, Kolikodol,Orthoxycol, Mercodinone, Synkonin, Norgan,Hydrokon) is a semi-synthetic opioid derived from two of the naturally occurring opiates, codeine and thebaine. Hydrocodone is an orally active narcotic analgesic and antitussive. Sales and production of this drug have increased significantly in recent years, as have diversion and illicit use. Hydrocodone is commonly available in tablet, capsule and syrup form. Hydrocodone was invented in Germany in 1920 and approved by the FDA for use in the US on 27 May 1951.
Henxy said:Paracetamol isn't a narcotic!
Hydrocodone is a derivative, rather than within the same family of opiates.
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Permalink Reply by Leshem Yosef on
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I my 20 years of natural healing[and I did my 5 years learning] I help many to discharge from dose drugs and I use my info from pro webs but they usually in Hebrew and I an not MD
But in Israel any way to get natural med. diploma in most school you must learn anatomy physiology and pathology as I did.
Any way I don’t look at the drug power
Only at the side effect and all of them have plenty
For example:
http://www.drugs.com/hydrocodone.html
Hydrocodone and acetaminophen side effects
Get emergency medical help if you have any of these signs of an allergic reaction: hives; difficulty breathing; swelling of your face, lips, tongue, or throat. Call your doctor at once if you have any of these serious side effects:
• shallow breathing, slow heartbeat;
• feeling light-headed, fainting;
• confusion, fear, unusual thoughts or behavior;
• seizure (convulsions);
• problems with urination; or
• nausea, stomach pain, loss of appetite, itching, dark urine, clay-colored stools, jaundice (yellowing of the skin or eyes).
Less serious hydrocodone and acetaminophen side effects may include:
• feeling anxious, dizzy, or drowsy;
• mild nausea, vomiting, upset stomach, constipation;
• headache, mood changes;
• blurred vision;
• ringing in your ears; or
• dry mouth.
This is not a complete list of side effects and others may occur. Tell your doctor about any unusual or bothersome side effect.
For the narcotic word:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/meds/a601006.html
Hydrocodone is available only in combination with other ingredients, and different combination products are prescribed for different uses. Some hydrocodone products are used to relieve moderate to severe pain. Other hydrocodone products are used to relieve cough. Hydrocodone is in a class of medications called opiate (narcotic) analgesics and in a class of medications called antitussives. Hydrocodone relieves pain by changing the way the brain and nervous system respond to pain. Hydrocodone relieves cough by decreasing activity in the part of the brain that causes coughing.
The internet is full with info and this wiki was just copy past from pro webs as I checkt it before posting it.
But this is not an info competition
It is only info.
With respect
Yosef
Henxy said:Wiki is written by anyone with an opinion, and is not to be trusted as a source of gospel. That said, PARACETAMOL IS STILL NOT A NARCOTIC!
I realise that you're coming from a non-pharmacological perspective here, and your use of wiki as a source of 'proof' to your point suggests to me that there's no point trying to explain the intricacies of the differences between heavy stuff like morphine, fentanyl, pethidine etc from less active derivatives.
Leshem Yosef said:Wikipedia English - The Free Encyclopedia דפדף
Hydrocodone
Hydrocodone or dihydrocodeinone (marketed as Vicodin, Anexsia, Dicodid, Hycodan (or generically Hydromet), Hycomine, Lorcet, Lortab, Norco, Novahistex, Hydroco, Tussionex, Vicoprofen, Xodol. Bekadid, Calmodid, Codinovo, Duodin, Kolikodol,Orthoxycol, Mercodinone, Synkonin, Norgan,Hydrokon) is a semi-synthetic opioid derived from two of the naturally occurring opiates, codeine and thebaine. Hydrocodone is an orally active narcotic analgesic and antitussive. Sales and production of this drug have increased significantly in recent years, as have diversion and illicit use. Hydrocodone is commonly available in tablet, capsule and syrup form. Hydrocodone was invented in Germany in 1920 and approved by the FDA for use in the US on 27 May 1951.
Henxy said:Paracetamol isn't a narcotic!
Hydrocodone is a derivative, rather than within the same family of opiates.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Miller on
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Hi Susan,
Thanks for this! I really want to help her, so I wanted to make sure I wasn't just taking her money. She really needs to be on the pain killers. But she is so loopy when she comes, I don't know what I'm seeing. I don't know how to judge the odd responses I'm getting compared to a typical state of somnambulism.
I decided that when she comes in today, I am going to tell her I need her help. We are going to discuss exactly what she is going through in hypnosis and what it feels like to her. I'm going to tell her I am just a guide and the loratab MIGHT be interfering, but I can't judge it, and that she is in the best place to judge the effectiveness of the therapy and decide if she should continue with it or not.
I'm not trying to be insensitive to her, not at all, in fact, I posted to find someone like yourself who could tell me that they had had some success with people who were on painkillers while in hypnosis like this. If everyone had said no, then I was assuming I would need to let her know she would be wasting her money to come to me. The way I see it, people in pain already have enough trouble. They don't need more people taking their money.
Susan French said:Hi,
I've worked a lot with substance abuse and all that goes with it and I've also worked a lot with people who come to me for pain and are on meds.
In general, I've found it more difficult to get a person on those kinds of drugs, including alcohol and pot, into a decent state of hypnosis but I've also found that it doesn't have to be an either/or approach.
Melissa Roth and Ron Eslinger have the best pain training that I've studied. I understand that Dan Cleary and Michael Ellner also have a good pain relief program but I haven't personally studied theirs.
Since we know that hypnotic suggestions can be received when the person is awake (waking hypnosis and all advertising), I would tell the client that results can be slower when the hypnosis is given when medicated.
Then, I would let them go to whatever comfortable level they can achieve fairly quickly. As a general practice, I usually do a basic induction and then layer suggestions in with deepening, so the suggestions are going in at different levels of the hypnotic state. Also, if the person is in pain, they are already in hypnosis to a certain degree.
Having dealt a lot with pain and having had a lot of pain in my own life, let me suggest that you be VERY careful of what YOU think the client should do. If pain is so severe that you're exhausted, irritable and, in general, less able to concentrate, you (the person in pain) has to do whatever it takes to get from point A to point Z.
I, personally, have done both. I have used medication when I start becoming dysfunctional and I do a lot of self-hypnosis, both with medication and without. It depends a lot on the time of day because pain gets worse as you become fatigued.
FYI: I've fought my way through pain a number of times in my life. I am now without pain (though I do get synvisc in my knees to reduce inflammation and buffer the cartilege). My first reaction towards someone who diminishes or is insensitive to my plight is to fire them...and I have done that a number of times. They have no business advising me because they have no damned clue.
What seems to work the best to me is to "take the client as he comes." Then do hypnosis pain relief techniques and suggest that he will need less medication less often. Always give suggestions for really good, restorative and healing sleep. These people are always sleep deprived bc the pain wakes them up and disturbs their sleep.
If you can find tolerance in your own attitude towards someone in pain, I would proceed that way: a little more hypnotic pain relief and a little more suggestion for less medication. If you can't find the proper level of compassion and tolerance towards someone in pain, refer the client to someone who can.
The last thing a pain patient needs is judgement from someone who has no clue as to how pervasive pain is and how difficult it can be to control, especially if the cause of the pain has not been corrected or can't be corrected.
My fiddy cent worth
susan
http://www.hypno4success.com/programs/pain-reduction/
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Permalink Reply by Henxy on
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I'm not competing, flower. I have no need to share the facts with you to help your understanding; but seeing as you wish your understanding to remain limited, I shall withdraw at this point, with nothing else to say on the subject than the knowledge that drug companies are required to state all potential side effects of their drugs. The side effects of being 'treated' by someone who is lacking in knowledge, experience and/or morals can be just as deadly as the drugs; only the 'healer's etc don't come with the same health warnings as the drugs.
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