Halt Cravings---along the same idea of Richard's dual dial for pain.and Don's Hyperempiria

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Permalink Reply by Barry Neale on December 28, 2011 at 1:21pm

I dont know how you would check if you are experiencing two at the same time or you are flipping between the two. The problem as I see it is that the moment you start to "think" about it, you step out of experience. When we are thinking we are out of experience and that in and of itself changes your focus and often this is what creates problems, particularly in performance.

Fritz Perls once said, "Stop thinking and come to your senses" and that is really good advice.

 

Personally I think we can and do experience two thoughts/feeling at one time (however we may not be consciously aware of it)

Many of our clients become our clients because there are incongruent, that is they're in two minds. and if you open your eyes and ears you can really become aware of this.

 

For example, lets say you have man in front of you and your are talking about his relationship with his wife.

You then ask him what his feelings are about his wife.

You watch as his body stiffens, his breathing suddenly stops, he thrusts his left hand forward pointing with his index finger, and then drops his right hand into his lap with the palm upturned and he says with a harsh, shrill, rapid voice...

"I do everything I can to help her, I love her so very much"

 

This person is really incongruent. The messages carried by his output channels (body posture, movements,voice tempo, tonality and words) do not convey a single message.

 

So as some level he is experiencing two thoughts/feelings at once. It is unlikely that he is consciously aware of this but it is happening. And if as a therapist you only pay attention to the words you are not likely to be that effective.

 

This is what is called simultaneous incongrueity.

 

Common examples of this are when someone says

 

I want x, but______________.

 

The other type of incongrueity is called sequential incongrueity. this is really common with drug/alcohol clients.

 

I have read Cal's book. I am an experienced 5 pather and I highly recommend his book.

 

BTW. There are other words to describe feelings

 

The following is a list from my NLP training.

Kinesthetic sensory modalities

Here are the basic kinesthetic sensory modalities (Several other NLP modelers have developed similar lists.)

Tactile K is the “sense of touch.” It senses texture, pressure, and temperature.

Vestibular K is motion and balance sensation from the inner ear.

Visceral K is literally “gut feelings.” (Viscera are internal organs such as the stomach and intestines.) Visceral K generates much of the feeling component of emotions. Since much of what people experience as emotions is chemical (such as endorphins in the brain), aspects of this modality processes slowly — at chemical rather than nerve speeds.

Visceral K also signals hunger, fullness, and tummy upsets. Some individuals have a difficult time distinguishing these physical signals from emotional ones.

Somatosensory K senses internal body states such as blood chemistry and blood pressure. Many of its “readouts” are not directly and easily accessible to consciousness.

Proprioceptive K senses body position and spatial relations, for instance between your left little finger, right knee, and right earlobe.

 

I hope this helps

 

 

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Susan French on December 28, 2011 at 3:02pm

The only way I can verify it, I think, is to ask an expert in neurology to explain the process neurologically, which I'm going to do.

Everything you've mentioned, Barry, could actually have serial signals/messages rather than simultaneous ones.  I think the answer has to be found in the actual brain function.  In a way, it probably doesn't matter to anyone but me but understanding it as serial signals or messages, perceived in rapid succession, would clarify the neurological process, which helps me.  

On a practical level, it might not matter. I guess.  It just makes more sense to me this way but I'm also just curious.

What really helped me in Cal's idea was that it made the process very simple.  If something in my environment feels unfair, the resultant sensation is XYZ=anger.  If I feel that sensation, the message to me is to become aware of what in my environment feels unfair.  I found it extremely practical and my clients seem to love it.  It takes something that is very technical and makes it understandable to a nontechnical person, which is important, I think.

It's not that there aren't shadings and nuances but it makes the experience practical and understandable.  that's the only reason I mentioned it.

Susan

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Permalink Reply by Barry Neale on December 28, 2011 at 3:15pm

I agree that they could be flipping and not exactly simultaneous at the neuological level but they certainly can be observed simultaneously.

 

I have to say I don't know what you are going to do with that information if you find it! :)

 

In my mind I don't need to know how everything works in order to use it. If I did I wouldn't be able to drive my car! Lol

 

I wish you luck in your search.

 

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Permalink Reply by Susan French on December 28, 2011 at 4:34pm

Barry,

Let me back up for a moment.  I think that the only that cares about whether we can experience two thoughts or feelings simultaneously or serially is me.  Thinking it all through helps me, whether I'm right or wrong.  

I remember reading something in Trevor Silvester's "Wordweaving Vol. 1, that might be a better way of looking at it.  "Gestalt theory talks of 'foreground' and 'background.'  'Foreground is that information elected by the unconscious and which is brought to conscious awareness (the seven plus-or-minus two bits of information).  ' Background' is all the other information available to the senses that is not chosen for our awarenss, but which our unconscious can still respond to.  This is vital to our understanding of what we intend to achieve with our suggestions, because a client's problem is the result of two things:..."

And he goes on to talk about how we perceive and/or interpret the foreground and the background.  

In that sense, you guys are right, I think. But can you focus your attention on background and foreground at the same time?  John seems to think that that's what you do when you collapse anchors.  (Correct me, John, if I misinterpreted what you said).

I think what's bugging me is whether or not you CAN focus on more than one idea, thought or feeling at the same time?  Ultimately, I'm still not sure, but I'm still thinking about it.  It's still a neurological question, though, I think.

I guess the reason it seems so important to me is because I THINK the work we do has to do with shifting focus/awareness: from awareness of pain to awareness of comfort, from awareness of craving to awareness of not craving (or forgetting to crave), from 'hallucinating' feeling fear to 'hallucinating' feeling safe.

Richard just gave us the Milton Erickson "Here or There" idea, the "either/or" idea;  the idea of splitting the attention or focus from a undesirable state to a more desirable one.

Maybe that makes more sense and is more correct. Again, I'm not trying to be right.  I'm just trying to understand.

Susan

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Permalink Reply by Don on December 28, 2011 at 6:31pm

Hi Susan,

Criterion A in the list of diagnostic criteria for dissociative Identity disorder (popularly known as "multiple personality"), is listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association as: "The presence of two or more distinct identities or personality states (each with its own relatively enduring pattern of perceiving, relating to, and thinking about the environment and the self)."

So it certainly seems as though it is possible for some people to focus on more than one idea, thought, or feeling at the same time. (You wouldn't have to be a Southerner to ask such a person, "How y'all doin' today?" -- and mean it!) 

Don

Susan French said:

 

I think what's bugging me is whether or not you CAN focus on more than one idea, thought or feeling at the same time?  Ultimately, I'm still not sure, but I'm still thinking about it.  It's still a neurological question, though, I think.

  

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Permalink Reply by Don on December 29, 2011 at 5:51am

Hi Susan,

It is a neurological question. They've done some split-brain experiments, in which the two halves of the brain have to be separated for medical reasons. They then arrange for one set of information to be sent to one hemisphere and another set of information to be sent to the other hemisphere, and the two hands respond differently.

As a historical note, perhaps the first recorded instance of DID is to be found in the New Testament, when Jesus reportedly asked a man who was possessed of a devil, "What is thy name?"and the man replied, "My name is Legion, for we are many." 

Don

Don said:

Hi Susan,

Criterion A in the list of diagnostic criteria for dissociative Identity disorder (popularly known as "multiple personality"), is listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association as: "The presence of two or more distinct identities or personality states (each with its own relatively enduring pattern of perceiving, relating to, and thinking about the environment and the self)."

So it certainly seems as though it is possible for some people to focus on more than one idea, thought, or feeling at the same time. (You wouldn't have to be a Southerner to ask such a person, "How y'all doin' today?" -- and mean it!) 

Don

Susan French said:

 

I think what's bugging me is whether or not you CAN focus on more than one idea, thought or feeling at the same time?  Ultimately, I'm still not sure, but I'm still thinking about it.  It's still a neurological question, though, I think.

  

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Susan French on December 29, 2011 at 7:48am

Cute joke. ;-)  I actually knew someone who had MPD/DID.  It was very, very weird.  The horror that this poor person had been subjected to as a child.  Extraordinarily bright, he managed to get a scholarship to Georgetown and got his degree there.  I asked him how he managed to get through school with the different personalities.  I don't remember his answer but my visits with him were fascinating and exhausting.

At that time I was going to ACA (Adult Children of Alcoholics) meetings (for school primarily) and I seem to recall witnessing a lot of different forms of DID, from mild to severe. I know that MPD/DID has now been kind of discredited by the academics but I saw what I saw.

I had totally forgotten about the split-brain studies.  Thanks for mentioning them.  After all this discussion I've decided that I'm probably wrong and that it wouldn't matter anyhow in terms of my mind-blowing new insights, whether we feel, think, experience or perceive things simultaneously or serially.  

What's blowing my mind is that it took me this long to understand that our work is about laser-like focus of attention and not about being in some mysterious and not-understandable state but I'm grateful.  But I finally 'get' it.  My new understandings, though they might have seemed so obvious, are unsticking so many ideas that just weren't making sense to me.

I don't mean to drive people nuts by picking at something until I understand it but I hate that feeling of not quite understanding.  Again, I'm grateful for everyone's indulgence in my obsessive need-to-understand.  

It might seem pointless to many but it really helps me to sort through ideas by being able to express them and then subjecting  them to examination.

Onwards and upwards, to infinity and beyond...lol.

Don said:

Hi Susan,

It is a neurological question. They've done some split-brain experiments, in which the two halves of the brain have to be separated for medical reasons. They then arrange for one set of information to be sent to one hemisphere and another set of information to be sent to the other hemisphere, and the two hands respond differently.

As a historical note, perhaps the first recorded instance of DID is to be found in the New Testament, when Jesus reportedly asked a man who was possessed of a devil, "What is thy name?"and the man replied, "My name is Legion, for we are many." 

Don

Don said:

Hi Susan,

Criterion A in the list of diagnostic criteria for dissociative Identity disorder (popularly known as "multiple personality"), is listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association as: "The presence of two or more distinct identities or personality states (each with its own relatively enduring pattern of perceiving, relating to, and thinking about the environment and the self)."

So it certainly seems as though it is possible for some people to focus on more than one idea, thought, or feeling at the same time. (You wouldn't have to be a Southerner to ask such a person, "How y'all doin' today?" -- and mean it!) 

Don

Susan French said:

 

I think what's bugging me is whether or not you CAN focus on more than one idea, thought or feeling at the same time?  Ultimately, I'm still not sure, but I'm still thinking about it.  It's still a neurological question, though, I think.

  

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Don on December 29, 2011 at 8:38am

Hi Susan,

What has been discredited is the tendency to read dissociative identity disorder into the fact that we are all different people in different situations. It was all the rage a few years ago to see many clients as having multiple personalities, and the clients would "take it to the bank" as an excuse for all the behaviors they disapproved of (while their therapists took their fees to the bank for treating them for something they didn't have!) But it really does exist, though not as commonly as people used to believe, and it's still in the diagnostic manual.

 We're all continually picking at things until we understand them. (That's why people conduct research and publish books.) And then along comes a scientific revolution that stands conventional wisdom on its ear, and we're back on our journey "onwards and upwards, to infinity and beyond." This is a part of what makes us human. (But it sure is fun!)

Don 

Susan French said:

 I seem to recall witnessing a lot of different forms of DID, from mild to severe. I know that MPD/DID has now been kind of discredited by the academics but I saw what I saw.

 --------------------------

I don't mean to drive people nuts by picking at something until I understand it but I hate that feeling of not quite understanding.  Again, I'm grateful for everyone's indulgence in my obsessive need-to-understand.  

It might seem pointless to many but it really helps me to sort through ideas by being able to express them and then subjecting  them to examination.

Onwards and upwards, to infinity and beyond...lol.

Don said:

Hi Susan,

It is a neurological question. They've done some split-brain experiments, in which the two halves of the brain have to be separated for medical reasons. They then arrange for one set of information to be sent to one hemisphere and another set of information to be sent to the other hemisphere, and the two hands respond differently.

As a historical note, perhaps the first recorded instance of DID is to be found in the New Testament, when Jesus reportedly asked a man who was possessed of a devil, "What is thy name?"and the man replied, "My name is Legion, for we are many." 

Don

Don said:

Hi Susan,

Criterion A in the list of diagnostic criteria for dissociative Identity disorder (popularly known as "multiple personality"), is listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association as: "The presence of two or more distinct identities or personality states (each with its own relatively enduring pattern of perceiving, relating to, and thinking about the environment and the self)."

So it certainly seems as though it is possible for some people to focus on more than one idea, thought, or feeling at the same time. (You wouldn't have to be a Southerner to ask such a person, "How y'all doin' today?" -- and mean it!) 

Don

Susan French said:

 

I think what's bugging me is whether or not you CAN focus on more than one idea, thought or feeling at the same time?  Ultimately, I'm still not sure, but I'm still thinking about it.  It's still a neurological question, though, I think.

  

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Permalink Reply by Susan French on December 29, 2011 at 8:55am

Very true.  I call it the Disorder-du-Jour Syndrome.  ;-)  And yes, I agree, it's fun, it keeps me alive and sane.

Susan

Don said:

Hi Susan,

What has been discredited is the tendency to read dissociative identity disorder into the fact that we are all different people in different situations. It was all the rage a few years ago to see many clients as having multiple personalities, and the clients would "take it to the bank" as an excuse for all the behaviors they disapproved of (while their therapists took their fees to the bank for treating them for something they didn't have!) But it really does exist, though not as commonly as people used to believe, and it's still in the diagnostic manual.

 We're all continually picking at things until we understand them. (That's why people conduct research and publish books.) And then along comes a scientific revolution that stands conventional wisdom on its ear, and we're back on our journey "onwards and upwards, to infinity and beyond." This is a part of what makes us human. (But it sure is fun!)

Don 

Susan French said:

 I seem to recall witnessing a lot of different forms of DID, from mild to severe. I know that MPD/DID has now been kind of discredited by the academics but I saw what I saw.

 --------------------------

I don't mean to drive people nuts by picking at something until I understand it but I hate that feeling of not quite understanding.  Again, I'm grateful for everyone's indulgence in my obsessive need-to-understand.  

It might seem pointless to many but it really helps me to sort through ideas by being able to express them and then subjecting  them to examination.

Onwards and upwards, to infinity and beyond...lol.

Don said:

Hi Susan,

It is a neurological question. They've done some split-brain experiments, in which the two halves of the brain have to be separated for medical reasons. They then arrange for one set of information to be sent to one hemisphere and another set of information to be sent to the other hemisphere, and the two hands respond differently.

As a historical note, perhaps the first recorded instance of DID is to be found in the New Testament, when Jesus reportedly asked a man who was possessed of a devil, "What is thy name?"and the man replied, "My name is Legion, for we are many." 

Don

Don said:

Hi Susan,

Criterion A in the list of diagnostic criteria for dissociative Identity disorder (popularly known as "multiple personality"), is listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association as: "The presence of two or more distinct identities or personality states (each with its own relatively enduring pattern of perceiving, relating to, and thinking about the environment and the self)."

So it certainly seems as though it is possible for some people to focus on more than one idea, thought, or feeling at the same time. (You wouldn't have to be a Southerner to ask such a person, "How y'all doin' today?" -- and mean it!) 

Don

Susan French said:

 

I think what's bugging me is whether or not you CAN focus on more than one idea, thought or feeling at the same time?  Ultimately, I'm still not sure, but I'm still thinking about it.  It's still a neurological question, though, I think.

  

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Permalink Reply by Michael Ellner on December 29, 2011 at 9:57am

"Tell me and I forget. Show me and I remember. Let me do and I understand."

~ Confucius

 

@ Readers who did not attend Richard and my webinars,

 

The goal is to participate in the "process" without thinking about it.

It might be helpful to put this in context: My goal was to help viewers of our webinars experience the videos that Richard and I posted more effectively.  My pre-ritual riff: "When our clients go through their hypnotic rituals without thinking about it they are in the target state and if they are thinking about the process, they are not in the target state."  The moment you experience this for yourselves, you will be able to use all the tools in your toolbox more effectively.  Experiencing the benefits of shifting from being a spectator to becoming an active participant in your hypnotic experiences will translate into your practice .

 

@ Newly certified hypnotists and students,

 

Hypnotic and hyperemperic modalities are creative helping/healing modalities. This is a vital lesson because helping clients optimize their hypnotic and/or hyperemperic experiences involves helping them suspend disbelief, which automatically activates belief!

 

Keep on trancing....

 

Michael E.

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Permalink Reply by Don on December 29, 2011 at 11:13am

Hi Michael,

Love your quote!

Don

Michael Ellner said:

"Tell me and I forget. Show me and I remember. Let me do and I understand."

~ Confucius

 

@ Readers who did not attend Richard and my webinars,

 

The goal is to participate in the "process" without thinking about it.

It might be helpful to put this in context: My goal was to help viewers of our webinars experience the videos that Richard and I posted more effectively.  My pre-ritual riff: "When our clients go through their hypnotic rituals without thinking about it they are in the target state and if they are thinking about the process, they are not in the target state."  The moment you experience this for yourselves, you will be able to use all the tools in your toolbox more effectively.  Experiencing the benefits of shifting from being a spectator to becoming an active participant in your hypnotic experiences will translate into your practice .

 

@ Newly certified hypnotists and students,

 

Hypnotic and hyperemperic modalities are creative helping/healing modalities. This is a vital lesson because helping clients optimize their hypnotic and/or hyperemperic experiences involves helping them suspend disbelief, which automatically activates belief!

 

Keep on trancing....

 

Michael E.

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Permalink Reply by John Cleesattel on December 30, 2011 at 2:25pm

Susan,

We can be aware of many things at once, but can only focus our attention (for lack of a better term...scrutinize) on one thing at a time.

Collapsing anchors creates two separate automatic reactions that each have their own trigger. Then when you fire the triggers off at the same time.. the automatic reactions cancel each other.

In the example I gave of the Ellner/Barsky detox technique:

You focus on the feeling you want to get rid of while making a fist and squeezing with your left hand.

(This anchors that feeling to the squeezing of the left fist...so you should experience it again automatically each time the left fist is squeezed).

Then you clear your mind and open your left hand (state break).

Then you make a fist with your right hand and squeeze while you focus on a time when everything is okay...no bad feelings or even a time when there are good feelings.

(This anchors that feeling to squeezing the right fist...so you should experience it again automatically each time the right fist is squeezed)

Then you clear your mind and open your right hand (state break)

Now you squeeze both fists at the same time... the resulting feelings are automatically triggered simultaneously and cancel each other out.

And when you collapse (trigger) the anchors you are not focused on either of them.

I hope this was clearer

John

Susan French said:

In that sense, you guys are right, I think. But can you focus your attention on background and foreground at the same time?  John seems to think that that's what you do when you collapse anchors.  (Correct me, John, if I misinterpreted what you said).

Susan

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