Help for salt addiction

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Permalink Reply by Melissa J. Roth on June 12, 2009 at 6:55pm

Has this woman gotten a good medical check up lately along with more than the routine blood work? Salt cravings are a sign of diabetes, Addison's disease anda variety of adreanal disorders--among some other, more rare, illnesses. If she is craving salt like you indicate that she is she should at least rule these illnesses out. They can be life threatening and should be ruled out--especially Addison's (hard to diagnose). Anxiety and depression are also symptoms of some of these illnesses. Be sure you are not treating her for an addiction when the real cause is a serious physical illness that could be disgnosed and treated.

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Permalink Reply by Neil on June 13, 2009 at 3:23am

I agree.
No reputable therapist would recommend the installation of a phobia.
It is insane.

I am pleased to be a member of the insane society who use this approach as a matter of course.
Paul McKenna, Richard Bandler, Erickson and certified aversion therapist world wide are also proud members. (They just don't think they're insane).

I don't know why we do what we do. It may have something to do with our stupid belief that our clients get what they want in life.

I also have no idea why so many millions of people even bother reading books by Bandler or Erickson, or even teach such things in psychiatric hospital teaching schools.

It may be because our understanding of phobias and compulsions differs from those of others.

According to Bandler, Grinder and Erickson, a phobia is 'an instantaneous response', 'one that is based upon a move away from strategy'. There is no intermediate 'thinking'.
Phobia does not mean the person feels 'terrified'. It just means you move away from something automatically because you don't like it.

Reasonable means 'being able to reason'. To reason means talk it through to a logical conclusion. In the NLP and HYPNOTIC model of phobia, there is no intermediate internal thought. It's just 'see-react', 'touch-react', 'hear-react', 'smell-react', or 'taste-react'. All, of course based on the 'I don't want this' presuposition.

If you have to talk to yourself to come to the conclusion that it is unappropriate to argue with a police officer in very specific circumstances, then you haven't learnt that behaviour. You have simply learnt the behaviour of working out what to do. This is time consuming and against the elegance required for smoothness in communication. This is sometimes the reason for communication problems.

I am sure we have all heard the saying: 'haven't you learnt not to argue about that yet'.
Of course, we must preserve our ability to progress by holding on to reasonable argument skills. However, isn't it reasonable to expect that we learn at some stage that if we have gone over the same argument many times with the same outcome, then we should automatically come to a conclusion before the situation progresses down the same destructive path?

We should at some stage develop maturity. We move away from something because we don't like it. Of course, some like banging their head against a wall.

Aversion therapists do not torture their clients. They simply teach(or at least try to teach) the client to move away from a feeling of not wanting to a feeling of want. Or vice-versa.

In NLP, this is referred to as a 'propulsion system'.
All of Bandler's and Erickson's works are based on propulsion systems. It's how the brain works on an automatic basis.

When a person has common sense, this refers to a choice made through available sensory evidence. It requires by design, a conversation in the mind. If we were to talk in our head about everything we do, we would never be able to make automatic actions. You do not decide to put your left foot out in a particular fashion each time you take a step. It is automatic.

The automated response to sensory stimuli was programmed as a propulsion system from the early times you learned to walk. This process involved falling and getting it right. The hurting yourself bit of falling, was an important factor in this development. No pain, no gain.

The reason you move quickly, automatically and without thought(conversation in you head) when your stiletto heels buckle, is because your automated response mechanism ran the TOTE associated with 4-tuple of stumbling. It instantly ran the pre-learnt response to stumbling in that situation. In order for this to have been available as an option, the response must have been learnt at an earlier time.

You must have fallen to some degree in the past and had a response such as: bollocks, I aint doin that again.
The good feeling of recovery was the part of the TOTE that lead you to the appropriate action:- recovery. The bad feeling of hurting moved you away from the incorrect muscular alignment.

Once the VAKO 4-tuple is established as useful, it becomes automatic, or subconscious as some might say.
You are completely unaware of why you did what you did. You are just grateful it worked. So you use that procedure in the future. This TOTE is now referred to a persons behaviour.

This is why, in NLP, 'positive outcome' and 'you are not your behaviour' are basic precepts in its application and understanding.

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Permalink Reply by Susan French on June 13, 2009 at 5:38am

This is also an excellent point and one which should be considered before ignoring "body wisdom."

S.

Donna Rodolph said:

I would educate her on salt....what it is and what it isn't.

Unrefined sea salt has over 100 minerals that are beneficial to the body. Natural salts are 'needed' by the body and functions properly in the body when all these other components are still intact. (it is even studied, tested, and documented...people with high blood pressure (with no weigh issues) who have changed from poison salt to a good sea salt...found reduction in their blood pressure! 'tis true.)
Refined Salt, however....is nothing more than poison. ~grin~ Can we all say: Heroin or white sugar? (no wonder it is addicting).
She should immediately change from the crud salt to the Celtic Sea Salt in its natural form. (sold at most health stores). It is good to note, though...the salt should be slightly colored. Some are a tint of gray and some a tint of purple. Some products on the market call themselves "sea salt" but it is nothing more than crap processed salt. Don't buy it...if you can't see it through the container.

The addiction to the chips, peanuts, and salty foods... can be more than just salt addiction. Many of the foods that the heroin salt ~evil grin~ is on...are products that also are loaded with the bad fats that, too, are addicting. You would have to battle both in order to combat effectively, the one. Many things when it comes down to health issues (be it weight, pain, illness)...can be helped with focusing on a healthy diet.

Education is KEY to changing a lifestyle. Lately...I have recommended a book(s) to a few people and it looks like it is more motivating than most. I think it is because it is written by the son of the man who helped create Baskin & Robbins franchise. His name is: John Robbins: The Food Revolution (his latest) and Diet for a New America (one of his best). Both his books, at the very least, help a person to become aware of misconceptions. They both are interesting reads...full of helpful information. I have also recommended these books on CD for those people who do not like to read. Education, education, education. haha. It changes lives.

Good luck with your client.
~D.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Andrade on June 13, 2009 at 6:50am

Hi Neil,

Neil says: "No reputable therapist would recommend the installation of a phobia.
It is insane. I am pleased to be a member of the insane society who use this approach as a matter of course."

I don’t think you’re insane, I don’t even know you well enough, and I don’t have the credentials to actually declare your sanity, but if you imply that you are, I can respect that.

And the sanity of Bandler, the stories imply that he is way out there but I don’t read much about him using aversion therapy or creating phobias. I know Paul McKenna uses aversion therapy in his, “I can make you thin program,” and he also used aversion therapy with Ellen Degeneres to quit smoking, and that’s all fine and good.

The definition that was used in my training describes a phobia to be an irrational fear. A fear from an unknown conscious source. Yes, it is also an instantaneous response as you say: “According to Bandler, Grinder and Erickson, a phobia is 'an instantaneous response', 'one that is based upon a move away from strategy….”

But if it is an irrational fear……fear comes with a multitude of symptoms including anxiety, I believe it is the anxiety that renders some people incapable of simple tasks……so to instill that into someone, for me, is not my first choice….even knowing that a phobia of driving will keep people from driving…so if someone wants to stay off of the roads, installing a phobia of driving will certainly do the trick, but would not be my first choice either.

My belief and understanding regarding phobias tells me if I scare someone into stopping a behavior, that the internal program that caused the behavior in the first place now has it’s solution removed will still be looking for a replacement behavior as a way to complete the programming.

In the case where the programming is no longer needed and or the unwanted behavior is merely a habit and no longer had a valid program, then aversion therapy could be considered a success barring any side effects.

For others, it may be seen as a poor solution choice. If the new programming that gets installed with aversion therapy, for example: the vomit and worms associated to chocolate that McKenna used on his show….takes hold…..there can be a possibility that those images will also come up in future association with someone else eating chocolate.

In a non smoking training course I have taken, it was noted that by using aversion therapy for smoking can cause the newly non smoker to not be able to be around his or her friends that do smoke….I personally think that not being around people who smoke is a wonderful idea, but not being able to be around your friends at certain times may not be.

My observations of most of Erickson’s and Bandler’s style involves the changing of the internal programming and not the use of aversion therapy. Erickson is big on altering the patterns which makes room for new programming suggested in his metaphors or his bizarre understanding of what works without side affects. A lot of NLP utilizes the changing of associations to triggers and the associations they have. I don’t believe it uses fears as it appears in your comment about what they use.

The best method that I can see that comes from Erickson and also used by Bandler and Dilts is when they elicit an alternative solution from the person seeking change. Eliciting the person’s own positive solution, and I believe this method happens by altering the mindset by incorporating existing knowledge that was not available at the time of when the internal programming happened. And that by eliciting ones own solutions….to me, it’s like the unconscious reasoning within itself which it wasn’t able to do when comparing and contrasting experience at the time of taking on said programming.

So why would you bother with the phobia of raw salt if you are going to give the client a compulsion of eat and live healthily?

And what if her belief of healthy eating includes the eating of salt and what if you have given her the phobia of salt…you have now created an internal conflict.

I agree with the person that said it can be the symptom of a disease, it should be checked out by a doctor.

If in fact it is just a habit, a simple swish pattern and not an additional fear, will work fine, but if it is a symptom of something bigger, just giving an across the board, “this should fix it,” to me, is irresponsible.

I don’t claim to be wiser than anyone on HypnoThoughts, nor do I claim to have more experience…..I do have a certain level of understanding and I do understand that this site welcomes all sincere input. And from some of the input, some people learn things they hadn’t thought of or seen before, and from some of the input some people strengthen what they already believe.

Also, thanks for your views and your comment on my face, “Steve, I love your face. It's really happy. Thanks for your thoughts.”

…….the picture was taken this last Thanksgiving at my folks house…..I have a lot to be thankful for everyday.

I like your photo as well….also a very happy face. I read on your profile page that your hobby is giving people what they want, guaranteed.

Wow….to me that can be a very dangerous thing, I have found that people, at the conscious level really don’t know what they want, in fact, if you ask most, the first thing they tell you is what they don’t want, they don’t even understand the question.

It’s all about what works and enjoying life, no?

I like that you have an opinion or belief that appears to be different from most who respond on this site and it comes without the hostility….this keeps the door open for me to learn something, thanks for posting your views.

Enjoy,
Steve

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Permalink Reply by Donna Carter on June 13, 2009 at 7:08am

Steve, I love your comments...they are so thought - ful... thought - provoking... both good!

I especially think this is a good point:

Steve Andrade said:

So why would you bother with the phobia of raw salt if you are going to give the client a compulsion of eat and live healthily?

And what if her belief of healthy eating includes the eating of salt and what if you have given her the phobia of salt…you have now created an internal conflict.

That would be an internal conflict.
~D.

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Permalink Reply by Susan French on June 13, 2009 at 7:20am

Melissa,

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

You are are stating once again what has become my own mantra: be careful that a problem is NOT MEDICAL before you jump in and start ASSuming that there is emotional conflict.

I'm sorry in advance. I know that statement has inflammatory overtones. However, it hits on one of most major bitches in the whole wide world and especially in our community.

Please be cautious before you go poking around for "emotional conflict" or "emotional trauma."

Theodore Reich, who was an early, early psychotherapist and teacher (I think), wrote a book called "Listening With the Third Ear." How very essential that concept is.

It's not really in our job description to have medical opinions but I would certainly think it would be wise to use our ability to be alert to causes and origins of ALL kinds and not just look for the ones we're most familiar with or the ones, more pertinently, that we prefer.

Sorry: that is a cautionary tale that will never die from this mind and mouth.

Susan

Melissa J. Roth said:

Has this woman gotten a good medical check up lately along with more than the routine blood work? Salt cravings are a sign of diabetes, Addison's disease anda variety of adreanal disorders--among some other, more rare, illnesses. If she is craving salt like you indicate that she is she should at least rule these illnesses out. They can be life threatening and should be ruled out--especially Addison's (hard to diagnose). Anxiety and depression are also symptoms of some of these illnesses. Be sure you are not treating her for an addiction when the real cause is a serious physical illness that could be disgnosed and treated.

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Permalink Reply by Donna Carter on June 13, 2009 at 7:29am

Neil,
Interesting views...

I didn't quite get what you got out of reading/watching McKenna, Bandler, or Erickson. I might have to revisit to confirm my own views on this topic or change them if that be the case.

One interesting thought did occur to me, however...
It is well known that people who acquire one phobia tend to...acquire more phobias. For example: people who have a phobia of bridges might soon develop a phobia of heights, or slides, or elevators, or amusement park rides, etc. etc.
Or...for another example: people who have a phobia of loud noises might soon develop a phobia of concerts, crowds, people, leaving their house, etc.
I am curious - with this being the case - how do you... block that from happening?

What is to stop someone with a phobia of salt to soon have a phobia of getting too much water, not getting enough water, eating something or anything with salt (have you looked at all the items that have sodium?), it could cause other issues such as anorexia or any other sort of eating disorder...
couldn't it?
And with that risk...is it worth it?

But then...maybe my misunderstanding and disagreement with your views is more about semantics and paradigm. Since, I clearly do not define phobia the same way as you do nor did I get the same understanding/information out of Bandler, Erickson and McKenna.

~D.

Neil said:

Paul McKenna, Richard Bandler, Erickson and certified aversion therapist world wide are also proud members. (They just don't think they're insane).

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Permalink Reply by Neil on June 13, 2009 at 9:00am

Thank you Steve, Susan and Donna.

It is nice to discuss topics with people who have intellectual understandings specific to their field.

My advice is only based upon experiential evidence.
It is understood that you all know your stuff. However, my points have always revolved around one thing: what you are doing does not work.

No matter how much talk is given, the precept has been what you are doing isn't working.
Most of what you say matches up with the stuff in training seminars and books. Your responses and suggestions comply with given wisdom. The point is: it doesn't work.

Putting aside ego, ask yourself honestly: does it work?

If you have had difficulty in getting 100% success 100% of the time, then it aint workin.
That's my definition, and it is based on experiential evidence not books.

I know and respect the efforts you have all put into your work. I really do. Honest!

I understand the hypnotic language patterns in Steve's posts; but do they work?
The theories and background knowledge expressed is cool; but does it work?

I genuinely enjoy your input; but is it going to help this client of Debbie's?

I do not believe in trying; only doing.
When someone says, 'this will work', then cool. Theories are just talk.

Please join your past experiences together in your own minds. Just because someone who gave you a certificate said you're now this or that, doesn't make you anything other than someone with a certificate.

The day you go on a course that guarantees you will get results 100% of the time, and it is backed up with 100% money back guarantee, and you actually get results 100% of the time, then sound.
The point is non of you have ever experienced this.

Ask yourself why?

They just wanted your money. That's why.
You may also want to consider the possibility that this reply was sent by someone who actually is able to do what he says, and he wants to help.

No matter how much you defend your position, if you know in your heart there is something missing, then please listen to this:
"The people who trained you have certified you as 'hypnotist' or what ever. What does that mean? From my understanding and provable experience, being a hypnotist is altering a person's subconscious mind and getting instantaneous results. I bull-shit you not."

I respect your self belief. That's cool!
But please consider my reply

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Permalink Reply by pauline owl on June 14, 2009 at 12:48am

Hi debbie have you asked her while shes under Why ? she craves? I think her body is telling her she needs minerals / salts but not the sort you buy in the supermarket she needs "salt of the earth" or its equal from health stores this has 84 different minerals in it - table spoon in a pint of water shake till dissolved when settled drink to the last three inches in the bottle sodium is heavy so this is where it settles this can be used to good effect in cooking.I found this to be the most effective for salt cravings always make sure she is drinking at least two pints water + per day alternativly follow Natalies advise or try some coloidal minerals ,,,

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Permalink Reply by Susan French on June 14, 2009 at 4:13am

Neil,

I dub you "Negatoma of the Month."

It's been a while since I've read so much negativity, scorn, derision, sarcasm, and the "intention-to-be right vs the intention-to-learn" in one person's post.

And, not for nothin' as they say in New Jersey, when folks here put down the reading of books as if reading provides no valuable information, I'm alerted to two things: 1) the person has probably never gone to college where one is required to read up to six books per class per semester or quarter, understand them, and remember their points, and 2) they usually have a training to sell...lol.

Oh well.....

Susan





Neil said:

Thank you Steve, Susan and Donna.

It is nice to discuss topics with people who have intellectual understandings specific to their field.

My advice is only based upon experiential evidence.
It is understood that you all know your stuff. However, my points have always revolved around one thing: what you are doing does not work.

No matter how much talk is given, the precept has been what you are doing isn't working.
Most of what you say matches up with the stuff in training seminars and books. Your responses and suggestions comply with given wisdom. The point is: it doesn't work.

Putting aside ego, ask yourself honestly: does it work?

If you have had difficulty in getting 100% success 100% of the time, then it aint workin.
That's my definition, and it is based on experiential evidence not books.

I know and respect the efforts you have all put into your work. I really do. Honest!

I understand the hypnotic language patterns in Steve's posts; but do they work?
The theories and background knowledge expressed is cool; but does it work?

I genuinely enjoy your input; but is it going to help this client of Debbie's?

I do not believe in trying; only doing.
When someone says, 'this will work', then cool. Theories are just talk.

Please join your past experiences together in your own minds. Just because someone who gave you a certificate said you're now this or that, doesn't make you anything other than someone with a certificate.

The day you go on a course that guarantees you will get results 100% of the time, and it is backed up with 100% money back guarantee, and you actually get results 100% of the time, then sound.
The point is non of you have ever experienced this.

Ask yourself why?

They just wanted your money. That's why.
You may also want to consider the possibility that this reply was sent by someone who actually is able to do what he says, and he wants to help.

No matter how much you defend your position, if you know in your heart there is something missing, then please listen to this:
"The people who trained you have certified you as 'hypnotist' or what ever. What does that mean? From my understanding and provable experience, being a hypnotist is altering a person's subconscious mind and getting instantaneous results. I bull-shit you not."

I respect your self belief. That's cool!
But please consider my reply

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Permalink Reply by Debbie Harper on June 14, 2009 at 5:47am

Thanks everyone for your advise and suggestions.

To start I have yet to put this client in hypnosis. She has so many issues and health concerns. She was told by her doctors to cut out the sodium and lose weight. I have asked her to talk to her doctor(s) first to learn what she is being treated for. This is a case of a patient who has been tested for diabetes, high blood pressure, (I was concerned also about a thyroid condition which she has been tested for) and a long list of other test, and put on medication without her knowing or understanding result. When I asked what the med's where for she did not know what nor did she know what the names of the drugs she is on.

But she does have a weight issue and she does admit that she craves salt and salty foods.
She has been to a nutritionist but still over salts her foods and yes she has crud salt or natural sea salt but it is the salty processed foods that are also fattening that are her downfall.

You are all correct in saying it is an addiction.

Because of the health concerns and her lack of knowledge of her own health issues, if I decide to treat her it will only be for weight, eating salty unhealthy food and work on achieving a healthy life style for now.

Hopefully she will ask her health practitioners the right questions and listen and receive the right answers.

Thank you for the book suggestion Secret Language of Feelings.

Until then thank you and keep up the good work with this dicussion forums.

Debbie

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