Help with Childhood Defiance please?

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Permalink Reply by Lorrie Hale-Ozbey on February 2, 2012 at 3:58am

Hello Debbie,

We can be imprinted and we must also be responsible for our own behaviors and outcomes. Jerry Kein has a wonderful patter book for temper and successful life to generate ideas on how to work with teens. I work with lots of teens. In fact, I work with a local middle school and high school discipline school. The kids I work with are the hardest hitters: rape, assault with deadly weapon causing bodily harm, and other felonies. We've reduced recidivism (repeat offenders) from 72% to less than 11% in a year. Kids want to have choices and feel they have control over their lives they just have to be taught the power of the mind and how to use it. Yes, the kids learned the behavior from someone and from somewhere. Yet, you can raise 2 or more children in the same home and they will have different outcomes. Individuals want and need to be held accountable for their behavior and outcomes. My style: I lovingly don't take no sh*t from them, I call bullshit when I see or hear or detect bullshit, and I hold them accountable while teaching them the tools of the mind, how to control their emotions and create their destiny. They really want to learn. 

One last thing. When an individual opens up about the said behavior they are just begging to know "how do I change and get new and better results," IMHO. 

Lorrie

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Permalink Reply by Douglas Rigg on February 2, 2012 at 9:18am

Debbie, I am not more seasoned than you...in fact.. I am still going through training but I did counsel for many years and have worked with Juvenile felons, and adult corrections(have been MFCC (intern) and Registered Counselor so..I have some expertise..The first thing as you know...the desire for change is one of the major contributing factors for successful Hypnotherapy. The fact is that cognitive therapy and behavior modification have typically been the hallmark in correctional facilities where they deal with these type of issues. Family Systems Therapy would also deal with these relationship issues problems. I don't know what types of therapy have been used by the therapist. From our perspective"Hypnotherapy" I would work on the desire to change issues (What is in it for him? Why should he change? How is it going to make him happier? How is life going to be better? Paint a picture of the better life? Join him as his collaborator for a better life) He is trying to get attention(crying out for it) help him to help himself. That is the first way I would approach it...I hope this maybe of assistance..Good luck ..Doug

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Permalink Reply by John R McLellan on February 6, 2012 at 4:37pm

It sounds to me like you are in over your head.

If the client could cover the costs of ongoing extensive counseling then I would suggest staying involved.

Other than that I would have the client move to a psychotherapist.

You may find that if you move in that direction the client may very well open up to you as he sees he is going to lose something. If he doesn't then he wasn't open to change anyway.

Hypnosis is not a panacea and there are some issues that need to be dealt with in other ways.

I know you may not like this advice but remember that is all it is.

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Permalink Reply by Celeste Hackett, CH on February 6, 2012 at 6:49pm

Wow Debbie,

You are very inspiring. What wonderful work you are doing!  I LOVE working with teenagers on the occasion that I get them in my office.

How did you get the school to let you work with them? 

Also, which patter book of Gerry's are you talking about?

Thanks!

Celeste

 
Lorrie Hale-Ozbey said:

Hello Debbie,

We can be imprinted and we must also be responsible for our own behaviors and outcomes. Jerry Kein has a wonderful patter book for temper and successful life to generate ideas on how to work with teens. I work with lots of teens. In fact, I work with a local middle school and high school discipline school. The kids I work with are the hardest hitters: rape, assault with deadly weapon causing bodily harm, and other felonies. We've reduced recidivism (repeat offenders) from 72% to less than 11% in a year. Kids want to have choices and feel they have control over their lives they just have to be taught the power of the mind and how to use it. Yes, the kids learned the behavior from someone and from somewhere. Yet, you can raise 2 or more children in the same home and they will have different outcomes. Individuals want and need to be held accountable for their behavior and outcomes. My style: I lovingly don't take no sh*t from them, I call bullshit when I see or hear or detect bullshit, and I hold them accountable while teaching them the tools of the mind, how to control their emotions and create their destiny. They really want to learn. 

One last thing. When an individual opens up about the said behavior they are just begging to know "how do I change and get new and better results," IMHO. 

Lorrie

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Permalink Reply by Allan Nelson on February 6, 2012 at 6:53pm

A lot of great advice on this post! And not much I can add.

Sometimes with difficult cases where I want to get a deeper insight into a child's world, I try encourage and sell the idea of fun.

A psychodrama encouraging a child to play a game of impersonating (child satire) all his family and peer group members for a "laugh." ... After gleaning all the information you can on the child's world this way, you can then go on to design a program to subtlety reframe the kid's interactions with the social world.

Hypnosis can help bring out the reenactment skills if the child needs confidence to allow them to free flow with their impersonations. "Some kids are quite adept at impersonations without hypnosis."

Once satisfied that you're on the right tracks with the child, you can then go on to reinforce everything with a final session of hypnosis and giving the child heaps of praise.

Everything I've said is highly adaptable in many ways to fit with your own methods.

Allan

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Permalink Reply by John R McLellan on March 3, 2012 at 7:07am

I guess I must have missed something in this. I thought you said that the child (although it sounds more like a teen) had no desire for change.  However he is showing improvement in areas according to his caretakers.

Sounds to me like he is manipulating people now.

If you get permission from the parents to talk to his teachers and look at his school records you may see a pattern appear that will help unravel this client's behavior. It comes across like the proverbial Pandora's Box. I would suspect abuse somewhere in his history either from external or from within.

What are his friends like? Are they troubled? Are his actions being reinforced by those around him or by programs he watches or music he listens to?

He may need the attention, so therefore he acts out. Where is his paternal father? When did he leave? Did he imprint on this person before he left or is he doing it now to get at the other spouse?

There are a thousand questions that need to be answered.

Sounds to me like he needs a friend!

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Permalink Reply by George Guarino on March 4, 2012 at 10:35am

I know from personal experience (my 9 year old son, the youngest) that an irrationally defiant child  is such a confusing strategy for the whole family to witness.  I'm interested to hear what those of you above report as ways to address this type of behavior.

The one thing I know is that my son is trying to protect himself in some way, this is his strategy, his pattern, and he would do it differently if he knew he would get an even better outcome.  What I notice is he gets trapped in his pattern and wont give himself permission to get out of it and express himself differently. This creates a viscious cycle that only ends when some time has passed, and a misdirection is introduced.  It's so excruciating to witness, and so 'unfair' for the rest of the family. Namecalling, belligerent, loud, mean.  My other two boys are no angels but they definitely are reasonable and respond to parental instructions. 

In the past I did question whether it was the result of leniant parenting where consequences were not carried out which sent mixed messages of how to behave. I'm certain that there is an element of this, but we're the same parents for all three children and the other two responded well. Lots of love and acceptance for all three.

If you were to see it happen, you would see that the defiance of the 9 year old comes from out of the blue, almost as if it's an internal conflict that he's acting out.  No outside provocation needed, unless saying "Good morning" is deemed provocative.

My parental strategy lately is to not feed into his energy, and then give him something that he has to do, like write 20x "I will act respectfully", rather than take something away from him which is always what the psychologists and parent-books suggest.  I find that even though he's resistant to doing it, he will do it after a while.  I stick to it so that it is a consequence, and it helps reenforce the behaviour I want him to exhibit, respect. Respect for himself and others.  I find that by giving him something to do redirects what he is focussing on, and gives him a short bit of time to recompose himself.  He's a great fun, smart, witty, charming boy when he's in control of himself. He's wise beyond his years. But he's a mean, borish, brat when he's in one of his episodes. 

If anyone here has any other insides (beyond theory) please let me know either on this post or privately. 

Hypnosis-wise I have done some guided visualizations with him, and read books like the Garth Moonbeam and Starbright series when he was younger to limited success. Posted signs around his room.  Of course he resists my fatherly attempts at hypnosis anyway.

I have wondered whether a past life regression would help.  Perhaps that's exactly what is in order. 

Thanks for listening.  George

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Barry Neale on March 4, 2012 at 11:16am

hi

personally i dont think PLR would be a good idea. i think you are setting yourself up for a bigger problem if you go down that road.

 

As the youngest child regardless of what you think he will have been brought up differently, not least of which is that he grew up with older siblings who may be allowed to do things that he is not yet allowed to do.

 

I recommend reading the book "Dont Shoot the Dog" by karen pryor. Its about positive reinforcement and might help.

 

The other thing that might be worth checking is food intolerances/allergies. Doris Rapp has done a lot of work with children with similar problems. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbuxz02k9UU&feature=related

 

Also you might want to seek out a good family therapist because (and please take this the right way) you might be part of the problem and be too close to see it.

 

Finally, as i parent i want to tell you that we have all been there! Whenever i hear a parent say "my kids are angels" my BS detector goes off!

 

regards

 

Barry

 

 

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Permalink Reply by John R McLellan on March 4, 2012 at 1:55pm

Hi George

I believe you will find that you have to be extremely cautious with what modality you introduce to him. The reason being, he can then use any one or more of them as a reason (excuse) for his behavior.

I.E.- PLR. He then say he is doing what he is doing because of what happened in a past life. In other words he can hand off the blame (or responsibility) to someone or something else.  One of the first things a client needs to learn is "If it is to be; it is up to me!!!" or "It's not what happens to you but how you react".

Children are often fascinated with hypnosis when you do the tests.

One I like to use is the medical forceps clipped to the back of the hand so when they open their eyes it blows them away. 

You say he resists your attempts at hypnosis and that is because you are too close.  Many have the same issue.

Find a colleague that you can trade services with.

My 9 year old gave me a difficult time once on a 100 acre farm.  I packed his bags and put him and the bags on the front step and said "Have a good day!".  45 minutes later he was apologizing (have to admit he was stubborn) for his actions and we have been best friends ever since. He is now 31 and his brother who witnessed it is 29 and we are best buddies. Harsh you say... but effective.

George Guarino said:

I know from personal experience (my 9 year old son, the youngest) that an irrationally defiant child  is such a confusing strategy for the whole family to witness.  I'm interested to hear what those of you above report as ways to address this type of behavior.

The one thing I know is that my son is trying to protect himself in some way, this is his strategy, his pattern, and he would do it differently if he knew he would get an even better outcome.  What I notice is he gets trapped in his pattern and wont give himself permission to get out of it and express himself differently. This creates a viscious cycle that only ends when some time has passed, and a misdirection is introduced.  It's so excruciating to witness, and so 'unfair' for the rest of the family. Namecalling, belligerent, loud, mean.  My other two boys are no angels but they definitely are reasonable and respond to parental instructions. 

In the past I did question whether it was the result of leniant parenting where consequences were not carried out which sent mixed messages of how to behave. I'm certain that there is an element of this, but we're the same parents for all three children and the other two responded well. Lots of love and acceptance for all three.

If you were to see it happen, you would see that the defiance of the 9 year old comes from out of the blue, almost as if it's an internal conflict that he's acting out.  No outside provocation needed, unless saying "Good morning" is deemed provocative.

My parental strategy lately is to not feed into his energy, and then give him something that he has to do, like write 20x "I will act respectfully", rather than take something away from him which is always what the psychologists and parent-books suggest.  I find that even though he's resistant to doing it, he will do it after a while.  I stick to it so that it is a consequence, and it helps reenforce the behaviour I want him to exhibit, respect. Respect for himself and others.  I find that by giving him something to do redirects what he is focussing on, and gives him a short bit of time to recompose himself.  He's a great fun, smart, witty, charming boy when he's in control of himself. He's wise beyond his years. But he's a mean, borish, brat when he's in one of his episodes. 

If anyone here has any other insides (beyond theory) please let me know either on this post or privately. 

Hypnosis-wise I have done some guided visualizations with him, and read books like the Garth Moonbeam and Starbright series when he was younger to limited success. Posted signs around his room.  Of course he resists my fatherly attempts at hypnosis anyway.

I have wondered whether a past life regression would help.  Perhaps that's exactly what is in order. 

Thanks for listening.  George

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Douglas Rigg on March 4, 2012 at 4:17pm

Hi George...

Some questions I would have for you:

Have you discussed self-talk issues? What kind of self talk does he reinforce himself with??

How different is he from the other sibs...

What are his strengths?  and how are they reinforced

What are his interests?? Does he get positive personal attention to the things..he is interested in!!

I raised six children....Some times.. some of the children are just like the parents..and some were dropped off from outer space somehow...It can be a challenge but they just function in ways... we aren't as familiar with..Is their anyone else in the extended family that seems to have a better working relationship with him? Maybe an aunt or uncle who could be a positive outside resource for him? Someone who might give you another viewpoint to view his behavior from?? I hope some of these question might offer you some new insights..if not.. just consider them good intentions from another Dad

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Permalink Reply by George Guarino on March 5, 2012 at 6:29am

Thanks guys for all of your insights and inspiration.  Much appreciated.  G

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