help with internet porn addiction/habit

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Scott Sandland on August 16, 2010 at 12:57pm

Lisa-

I recommend removing the information about your client's work/studies. This is a public forum and those specifics probably won't change people's input too dramatically.

Hope you find specific answers to this,
Scott

Permalink Reply by Richard Nongard - NLPBoard.com on August 16, 2010 at 1:07pm

My 2 cents:

I come from the same vocational background as him, so I understand this thinking.
He has come to you saying "porn addiction" but I would seriously question if that is even a valid "diagnosis".
It seems to me to be much more reasonable to say, his internal drives do not reconcile with his conscious choices.
There is a big difference between spirtual and psychological incongruity causing feelings that are distressful and the concept of "addiction".
Sure you may overlap into issues of obsession and compulsion (again rather than "addiction").

At the risk of being too controversial here for some, this case is futile. Why? Becasue he wants to lable something natural and normal as "addiction" seeing it is "pathological" and from the "demon of desire" rather than within the normal desires of normal people. It is intinctual for men to want sex, and they should have it. That is what is normal (and for women too). My guess is though, that the beliefs they hold will keep them from a ratonal discussion of sex and sexuality without traditional marriage counseling. So I would refer them to a LMFT, for traditional therapy, so they can hopefully talk openly about fantasies, desires, needs and wants, and solve the problem rathern than subjegate natural tendencies to religious dogma or social learned behaviors.

I am not fond of the "porn addiction" diagnosis, in fact we can't even agree on what a definition of porn is, and it seems his real issues go far beyond simply looking at naked chics (or men). Only in America do we shieled our children form Janets breast, but let them watch Arnold Govenator blow peoples heads off, and lable the boob as "porn".

So If I were agreeing to see them I would not try to STOP the boob watching, but rather open their attitudes about talking about, experiencing and defining human sexuality.

Permalink Reply by Graham Old on August 16, 2010 at 1:29pm

I'm with Richard.

Perhaps send him away with a PHS of researching healthy and romantic "porn" that they could watch together.

Permalink Reply by James Hazlerig on August 16, 2010 at 1:32pm

Any time I hear that a wife is complaining about her husband looking at porn, I wonder if she reads romance novels (which are basically "emotional porn" designed for women).

James

Permalink Reply by Dennis Atkinson on August 16, 2010 at 3:05pm

I have to agree with the other posts on this topic ... this sounds like something that should be referred to a MFT.

Permalink Reply by Richard Nongard - NLPBoard.com on August 16, 2010 at 3:09pm

I had an alomost Identical case....
I wrote it out in my 1998 book, "Crossing the Line: Psychosexual Disorders"
I would venture to say, if they cannot do together the assignment this couple was given, no amount of hypnosis will help them... (and for many reasons, not limited to liability, should be given by an LMFT or Licensed Sex Therapist)

The Case of the Catholic Couple
She was a Catholic schoolteacher and he was an insurance salesman. The presenting
problem was not sexual difficulty. However, within a session or two, it became
apparent that sexual frustrations topped their list of things they wanted to talk about.
Their story was interesting, as they truly were childhood sweethearts. They were both
devout Catholics and had met when they were in Catholic elementary school. They
began dating in the 7th or 8th grade. They continued this relationship when he attended
the private Catholic high school for boys and she attended the one for girls. After high
school graduation, they went off to a Catholic university together and after completing
their educations, they got married. We’ll call them Joe and Mary.
Joe and Mary had been married for 12 years and had one child, age 5, before they came
to my office. So apparently, they had had sex at least once, although at this point in
their marriage they were not having sex. They were committed to each other and they
loved each other, but Mary did not find sex pleasurable.
As I was sitting in the counseling chair listening to them, I was perhaps not attending
fully. Don’t get me wrong; I heard what they were saying, but at the same time, it was
near the end of the day and I was thinking about those tasks at home that needed to be
done, and so while I was listening, I was perhaps not giving them my full, undivided
attention.
They were going on about sexual frustrations and began to talk specifically about oral
sex. Mary reported that she just did not enjoy that activity. Perhaps it was because I
was not attending fully, or perhaps it was my shock that she did not enjoy oral sex, but
whatever the reason, I suddenly lost all professionalism and spoke before I thought. I
turned to Joe and said, “That’s because you’re no good at it.”
At this point, I thought he might hit me. Then, when Joe’s eyes met mine, the instant
anger on his face suddenly melted into a sly smile. I set back in my chair, silently
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watching his reaction in light of my insult. He now looked, well, thankful and eager, in
a state of happy desperation.
I realized that I had just set him up to finally discuss what he has always wanted to
discuss. He took a deep breath, rearranged himself in his chair, and confessed, “Well
Richard, maybe you are right. Maybe I am no good at it.” I leaned forward. (At this
point, I was paying very close attention to my clients.)
Joe continued, “And I have an idea. You know we are both very religious and neither of
us has had a sexual encounter with anyone else. Neither one of us have ever even seen
anyone else have sex. Neither one of us has even talked to anyone other than you about
sex. But I have an idea. Maybe,” he paused looking at his wife, “Maybe - and I want to
make it clear here that this request is not for prurient reasons but only to help us as a
couple -but, maybe we should learn how to have sex by watching some porno films
together.”
I looked over at his wife who was now the angry one. She was fuming. Joe stammered,
“Really, not because I’m not happy with Mary or want to see other women, but because
we could, as a couple, watch and see what they are doing and then we could maybe do
it ourselves. You know what I mean?”
I hated to cut down his idea after I had already insulted him, but this was a bad idea.
So, I told him, “No, you cannot watch porn together for the purpose of learning how to
have sex.”
He said, “But why not? Other people do that. Don’t they?”
I explained that those who watch porn to learn how to have sex were often the people
who ended up in my office for sexual counseling. I told him, “There is only one reason
to watch porn and it’s not for any educational value. It’s because you are turned on and
aroused by watching other people have sex.” I asked him if he knew anything about the
porn business and of course, he said no. So, I educated him.
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The actors and actresses in porn films are not union actors, they are not members of
the Screen Actor’s Guild and unlike the actors and actresses you see on television shows
and the big screen, the typical porn star on a DVD movie was paid maybe $300 ‘per
fuck’. Most of the people who appear in porn films are desperate to have next month’s
rent money, to keep their utilities on, or to finance their drug habit. They are getting
paid to get laid.
I must confess that I, like many readers of this course, have seen some porn films. In
my opinion, no one appears very happy in these films. The women always seem to fake
their orgasms, and the men often look as if they have a difficult time getting off. The
actors regularly give the impression of being bored or not enjoying it, and sometimes
they even appear to be in pain.
I do not want my clients to learn sexual technique from somebody who got paid $300 to
‘fuck for the camera’. I told Joe and Mary that the only real way to learn sexual
technique is not by watching somebody who is unhappily making enough money to pay
their rent at the end of the month, but instead to learn from each other how to make
love.
Then, I went to my marker board and drew a picture.
58
When I drew this picture on my marker board, their faces were white with shock. After
a bit of silence, Mary spoke up. “What are they doing?”
I nodded, “Yes, they are masturbating.”
She choked. “Together?”
I said, “Yes. Specifically, what they are doing is he is showing her what makes him
happy and she is showing him what makes her happy. You both know what brings you
pleasure – or at least you should. How do you liked to be touched? Some people like to
be touched in one way, and other people like to be touched in another way, and some
don’t like to be touched in that way at all, and only you know what it is that turns you
on. So, in order for the two of you to learn sexual techniques that will be pleasing
yourself and your partner, you are going to need to show your partner what it is that
you like.”
She looked indignant for a moment, or maybe it was horrified. Finally, she asked, “You
want him to… masturbate… in front of me?”
I told her of the statistic on masturbation, that 95% of all men masturbate and the
other 5% lie. I explained to her the reality that the majority of women masturbate on a
regular basis, most frequently after sex.
Joe grinned and broke the ice. “So that’s why you take the long baths after we make
love, huh?”
The couple went home that night, tried the assignment, and discovered that you can
enhance your sexual satisfaction by learning – and teaching - sexual technique with the
partner who you love.

Permalink Reply by Greg Turner on August 16, 2010 at 3:43pm

Lisa - I liked what Richard said about this might not being an addiction. My gut reaction about the wife saying that it is his problem is that she probably feels very threatened and insecure by what he is watching, that she could not possibly measure up in looks, or otherwise to what he watches.
Perhaps a course of treatment would be seeing them both, but only with the understanding that he use will power to not watch any porn for the duration, and she accompany him to seeing you. Then see if you can get them to doing "dating activities" that they used to do with each other AND make them promise they will NOT have intercourse. In other words, get them to build up the sexual charge between them. One person who has a lot of really good stuff to say about what makes for genuine attraction is David Deida in "Intimate Communion". And I agree with Richard, if the wife is not willing to work on her part in this, too, you won't be successful in having the husband redirect his sexual energy into non-porn outlets.

Permalink Reply by Lisa Smith on August 16, 2010 at 3:59pm

Thanks for the feedback, guys. Yes, I agree that addiction is not the right word for his situation. He was able to go without the porn for a while when his wife was having sex with him at least twice a week, even though it was "planned sex."
It would be great to get a female perspective on this.
I have suggested a couple of books to this man and how to present them to his wife in a way that could increase her receptiveness. He suggested that she might be open to coming to see me individually as well.
I'll have to explore the situation more.

Permalink Reply by Antoine Pruyssers on August 16, 2010 at 4:05pm

This is a couples-issue, and has to be treated as such.
Both partners seem to have misguided ideas concerning sex, and sexual pleasure, what led to this form of "sexual release".
If the man wants to stop watching porn, don't concentrate on his reluctance to it, but towards enjoying his fantasies, rather then visual-aid.
The woman sounds like she is bound to misguided moral, and can also be taught to enjoy what god has given them:
A G-spot.
Use a lot of reframing, in their context, and dismiss the misguided way sex is percieved!

Permalink Reply by Licentious Maladay on August 16, 2010 at 6:10pm

Please do some research into internet pornography before deciding whether it qualifies as an addiction. I would suggest Marnia Robinson's Reuniting web site. It is also a self-help group. I have posted in this forum about internet pornography before, so I will not repeat it in this discussion.

Lic

Permalink Reply by Richard Nongard - NLPBoard.com on August 16, 2010 at 6:39pm

Lic-
If we want to use a medical model, the obsessive-compulsive DSM-1 model is a much better fit than the addiction model. This is the case with many conditions in the medical model, that want to use the "addiction" label. Or perhaps, the Impuse Disorder model, which is where pathological gambling is in the DSM-IV. The research you elude to talks about brain chemistry changes, but that hardly qualifies as addiction, despite the authors claim; since even simple thoughts change our biology. It is impossible to be "addicted" to sex, since we are all sexual all the time (think 7th grade science - The Reproductive System) wether we are having sex or not.

That being said, addiction, OCD and Impulse disorders do have parallels, and can have features of one another. But to say one is a "sex addict" is logically the same as saying one is a "breathing addict"

In this case though it seems clear that although features of OCD or Implusivity may be present on either the Axis 1 or Axis 2; the root cause is in the belief systems each holds about sex, communication about sex, and the understanding of the relationship and behaviors within a certain social world-view. There are many couples who do not share the same value system, who watch Playboy TV each night, share ertotic thoughts and spend a great deal of time enjoying sex with their partner, or enjoy self-stimulation at times (even while married). For thee couples they exact same behavior is not a problem nor viewed as "addiction" so clearly the "addiction" is in the way the couple is defining the parameters of the relationships, the values, expression and meaning of sex....

Had she presented a case with a single male viewing porn obsessively, who has foregone real-world relationships, the psychiatric model might fit. But in this case is is pretty clear a social-religious-cultural issue.....
And I might add, one that will NEVER be resolved in individual therapy, only in conjoint therapy.

Lic

Permalink Reply by Licentious Maladay on August 17, 2010 at 1:51am

Hi Richard,

I have no problem calling obsessive porn watching a compulsion rather than an addiction.

Unfortunately, in your argument you confuse men's "instinctual desire to want sex" with pornography. At the risk of overstating the obvious, watching pornography is not having sex. Pornography deliberately entices and then robs the viewer of satisfaction. It is the meal designed to leave you hungry for more. It is designed to make you escalate the excitement and buy more. Add into it feelings that it is forbidden by your religion and you get a heady, compulsive/addictive mixture.

Sure, people masturbate in and out of marriage. Sure, couples view pornography together. Just like many people smoke without getting addicted to cigarettes. The rule of thumb is that if you can go two weeks without porn then you're fine. Faced with that test, many men don't get past five or six days. Whatever you label it (and in this case, this couple chooses to call it an addiction), the feeling is very strong.

What men routinely deny / underplay is the effect that pornography has on their perceptions of women. You can clearly see that in the posts by men who have kicked the habit: they start talking about how beautiful their wives/girlfriends/female co-workers etc. are.

I agree that this case has several layers: his, hers and theirs. In this case, using the word "addiction" (whether medically appropriate or not) underlines that it is serious, that it will take time and energy to overcome and that he needs her support. Like any compulsion, it can be addressed with hypnosis, as Lisa so rightly says.

One observer told me that she saw her man's porn habit as a frustrated quest for intimacy. Frustrated, because porn doesn't deliver the feeling of intimacy. That is the place where this couple might consider starting. What do they share with each other outside of the bedroom? Do they let each other into their hearts? Have they drifted apart emotionally? What are they doing to keep their feelings for each other strong?

I would reframe this experience as a great learning for a minister to be. He will understand what a surprisingly large number of his parishoners is going through.

All the best, Lisa.

Lic

Richard Nongard - NLPBoard.com said:

Lic-
If we want to use a medical model, the obsessive-compulsive DSM-1 model is a much better fit than the addiction model. This is the case with many conditions in the medical model, that want to use the "addiction" label. Or perhaps, the Impuse Disorder model, which is where pathological gambling is in the DSM-IV. The research you elude to talks about brain chemistry changes, but that hardly qualifies as addiction, despite the authors claim; since even simple thoughts change our biology. It is impossible to be "addicted" to sex, since we are all sexual all the time (think 7th grade science - The Reproductive System) wether we are having sex or not.

That being said, addiction, OCD and Impulse disorders do have parallels, and can have features of one another. But to say one is a "sex addict" is logically the same as saying one is a "breathing addict"

In this case though it seems clear that although features of OCD or Implusivity may be present on either the Axis 1 or Axis 2; the root cause is in the belief systems each holds about sex, communication about sex, and the understanding of the relationship and behaviors within a certain social world-view. There are many couples who do not share the same value system, who watch Playboy TV each night, share ertotic thoughts and spend a great deal of time enjoying sex with their partner, or enjoy self-stimulation at times (even while married). For thee couples they exact same behavior is not a problem nor viewed as "addiction" so clearly the "addiction" is in the way the couple is defining the parameters of the relationships, the values, expression and meaning of sex....

Had she presented a case with a single male viewing porn obsessively, who has foregone real-world relationships, the psychiatric model might fit. But in this case is is pretty clear a social-religious-cultural issue.....
And I might add, one that will NEVER be resolved in individual therapy, only in conjoint therapy.

Lic

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