Hypnosis without trance

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Permalink Reply by John Cleesattel on February 17, 2010 at 5:23pm

I would be open to that :)

John

bob burns said:

Thankyou John for taking the time to come back. For what it's worth I think it might be a great idea for all of us if you and people like James should get together and share your collective findings. He's a new kid on the block that's for sure, but quite an intelligent one and a natural seeker. With your experience only good things could happen! Surely that's what this place is all about; hypnotists working in collaboration... without talking about their wonderful partners who know better than all of us!
Darren, I have seen your work on youtube. You're simply one of those guys who knows how to hypnotise and the viewer can clearly tell that by watching your style within the first 15 seconds. 'nuff said. Glad to know you and hope to meet up sometime.
Bob

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Permalink Reply by Michael Ellner on February 17, 2010 at 6:07pm

Hi Bob,
Interesting thread-- I enjoy when seasoned pros still get excited by learning new ways of being more effective -- More power to ya!

Hey James,
I have always though of NLP as Ericksonian Hypnosis without conventional entrancement--Like Jan, I appreciate that it would be necessary to define trance in order to debate the issue of whether or not you are in fact inducing a trance or not.
FYI - That's not a biggie for me, because I vew what you are doing as working in Alert States of Trance and more importantly -- I like that you are offering an alternative way to help millions of potential clients who need our help but who would rather not be hypnotized.

Dear Thread Participants -- Greetings - I don't know about you but, just when I was thinking that no one on HT.com could possibly be as boring or transparent as "AKA-" his partner joins this thread -- Oh, my...

Best,

Michael E.

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Permalink Reply by Pattie Freeman CH.t, MST on February 17, 2010 at 8:25pm

Bob,

I agree totally with Scott and not to repeat what he had said but yes..it can happern since I do stage also I see the imagination alittle more vivid on stage and its more relaxation so you see a deepening effect in the cbair more then on stage.

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Permalink Reply by bob burns on February 18, 2010 at 2:36am

Yes Pattie, you're right on the money. Whether there is trance or not is one arguement, however I think what we ar alll (nearly all) saying is that the 'emperical evidence' suggests that there are no signs of it, or as you rightly say the vividness certainly does not appear to be there.
In any case I believe Michael hits the bullseye with his comment that: "you are offering an alternative way to help million of potential clients who need our help but who would rather not be hypnotised." How cool is that?

Yours aye,

Bob

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Permalink Reply by James Tripp on February 18, 2010 at 4:53am

Hi Michael

For me, eyes open NLP processes should be hypnotic, but often are not. I am a big fan of building responsiveness first, rather than just diving in with fingers crossed, which is one of the ways I use my HWT methodologies in client changework.

'Alert state of trance' is an interesting term. For me, I prefer to dispense with the term altogether, because of all the baggage that goes with it. I love this quotation:

“I want you to know that there are no colours in the real world, there are no fragrances in the real world, that there’s no beauty and there’s no ugliness. Out there beyond the limits of our perceptual apparatus is the erratically ambiguous and ceaselessly flowing quantum soup. And we’re almost like magicians in that in the very act of perception, we take that quantum soup and we convert it into the experience of material reality in our ordinary everyday waking state of consciousness.” Sir John Eccles – Neuroscientist.

I emboldened that last bit to draw attention to it - we actively shape our subjective reality in our "ordinary everyday waking state of consciousness". We have this capability without the need for 'trance' or any other 'special state'.

Anyhows, that's my frame and my is it liberating!

All the very best

James
www.hypnosiswithouttrance.com

Michael Ellner said:

Hi Bob,
Interesting thread-- I enjoy when seasoned pros still get excited by learning new ways of being more effective -- More power to ya! Hey James,
I have always though of NLP as Ericksonian Hypnosis without conventional entrancement--Like Jan, I appreciate that it would be necessary to define trance in order to debate the issue of whether or not you are in fact inducing a trance or not.
FYI - That's not a biggie for me, because I vew what you are doing as working in Alert States of Trance and more importantly -- I like that you are offering an alternative way to help millions of potential clients who need our help but who would rather not be hypnotized.

Dear Thread Participants -- Greetings - I don't know about you but, just when I was thinking that no one on HT.com could possibly be as boring or transparent as "AKA-" his partner joins this thread -- Oh, my...

Best,

Michael E.

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Permalink Reply by Jan Krüger on February 18, 2010 at 5:20am

James Rolph said:

'Alert state of trance' is an interesting term. For me, I prefer to dispense with the term altogether, because of all the baggage that goes with it.

It just occurred to me that my current definition of trance is almost exactly what you call a hypnotic loop. Funny how that works out.

Good point about the "fingers crossed" mentality in NLP. I guess in the end that's what separates the mediocre NLP practitioners from the really good ones: how much responsiveness they get. I'm tempted to lump all of this together under the term of rapport, only it's not just rapport with the hypnotist/NLPer, but also rapport with whatever the hypnotist/NLPer does. I think I'll mull that over a bit more.

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Permalink Reply by bob burns on February 18, 2010 at 5:53am

Hi Jan,
That's well worth mulling over!
For me: the rapport is with THEM and if we PACE & LEAD whatever they do & think that builds into even a greater rapport. ie: the mysterious question: "Wow!... (long pause with a look of suprise on the face of the hypnotist) ... And what does THAT feel like?" James chooses the word PANTOMIMING which I like. In sales I was trained (a million years ago) to hesitate, modulate and emphasis. All which, whilst listening to THEM, becomes a form of pacing in leading which builds rapport which.... yaddyaddyaddy (as a none New Yorker I've always wanted to sat yaddyaddyaddy).
I truly believe that it's stuff like this, in the hands of a great therapist/hypnotist, which adds the art to the science. I like to call it (art & science together): 'dovetailing'.

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Permalink Reply by James Tripp on February 23, 2010 at 9:32am

Hi Jan

For me, I use the term 'Hypnotic Loop' firstly to emphasise process over state, and secondly to denote a particular model that I have for that process. The model has practical application in that it creates entry points for picking up loops and steering them (I think you probably know this, because you are on the blog subscription list, I believe).

So if trance = hypnotic loop, I hope that it is a process view of trance rather than a state view!

All the very best

James

www.HypnosisWithoutTrance.com

Jan Krüger said:

James Rolph said:

'Alert state of trance' is an interesting term. For me, I prefer to dispense with the term altogether, because of all the baggage that goes with it.

It just occurred to me that my current definition of trance is almost exactly what you call a hypnotic loop. Funny how that works out.

Good point about the "fingers crossed" mentality in NLP. I guess in the end that's what separates the mediocre NLP practitioners from the really good ones: how much responsiveness they get. I'm tempted to lump all of this together under the term of rapport, only it's not just rapport with the hypnotist/NLPer, but also rapport with whatever the hypnotist/NLPer does. I think I'll mull that over a bit more.

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Permalink Reply by Jan Krüger on February 23, 2010 at 2:27pm

I was going to post something extremely long-winded here about what states are. I changed my mind. Here's the condensed version.

It's valid to think in states, as long as one remembers that "trance state" doesn't actually say very much about what's really going on inside someone's head. We don't tend to think of states as something fluid and mentally intangible; processes, on the other hand, are generally perceived as fluid and dynamic. If you ask me, it's the dynamic quality that counts. If you integrate that into your understanding of "trance state" and take care to discuss state transitions, too, it's got the same explanatory power as a process-based model.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's all semantics... in this case the advantage of thinking in terms of processes is that we associate processes with more useful ways of thinking.

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Permalink Reply by Jonathan Chase on February 23, 2010 at 3:42pm

Often seen it Bob,

But you'll find that most peole don't want it. They want the swinging watch out of the game full blown 'Hypnosis'.So useful as it may be you won't use it as much as you think.

As for trance anyway - hypnosis is the application of suggestion through the imagination.... no not the late great Romark .... Emile Cuoé in 1920 and Charles Boudin in his book Suggestion and Auto Suggestion 1899

And the Amazing Kreskin now

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Permalink Reply by Darren Altman on February 24, 2010 at 6:49am

Good luck to him. You didn't invent hypnosis and there are tonnes and tonnes of videos, dvds, courses and products out there. Why shouldn't Rob impart his knowledge? His techniques aren't all yours and he's just one of a tonne of hypnotists running courses.

You should be pleased and proud that a student of yours has gained enough knowledge to go out and stand on his own two feet, not bitter. I'm sure he's not trying to put you out of business as you put. When a student of mine lands a great gig I'm pleased for them. How will art progress?

Good luck to him.

Dr. Jonathan Royle aka Alex Smith said:

Seems everyone is jumping onto the Hypnosis Training Bandwagon,
What really upsts me is when people you have taught try and put you out of business,
I'm FUMING - Yes thats right FUMING..

My student Robert Temple is trying to put me out of business..

Watch this video which he has just posted on the internet and you'll see what I mean,

http://tiny.cc/UernC

- As you can see its NOT my course and my only reasonf or posting this here is that its just nother example of someone taking techniques they've been taught and then trying to make money repackaging them just like my earlier comments about Hypnosis Without Trance being nothing new!

Cheers

Jonathan Royle

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Permalink Reply by Reg Blackwood - The Quicknotist on February 24, 2010 at 8:37am

Awwww c'mon Darren!
It's just a sneaky way to drop an advert into a post. This time for a mate's course.
Moderators?
Reg

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