Hypnotherapist admits sexual assault on client

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Permalink Reply by Susan French on November 23, 2009 at 8:39am

Hi Kathleen,

I'm sorry it came off that way and truthfully, I agree with you. This comment really comes from other discussions here that to my sensibility seem to diminish the effect that inappropriate unwanted touching has on people. Truly my irritation is aimed more towards people who think that it's "not a big deal." We now have laws against sexual harassment because enough people spoke up. That's really all I'm doing.

Originally, in the other discussion, I was trying to make a point. That point is simply, if someone doesn't "get" the effect of their behavior and/or stubbornly refuse to see the damage it causes, sometimes it's effective to subject them to the same.

I actually learned that from my mom who was an RN. Her patients loved her because she was gentle and sharpened her needles every time she used them (in those days, they sharpened their needles themselves. If you got lazy, it hurt the patient more than necessary.) She was dilligent about that and many other things. She told us a story about a little boy who wouldn't stop biting people (common enough). He loved her as well. One time she got tired of it and bit him back. He was surprised, shocked and...he never bit anyone again.

I use a similar thing with my kids and grandkids when they are mean or insensitive. I try to reframe the situation in a way that they can "get it." It usually works. And I find that what works with children, often works with thickheaded or insenstitive people.

No, truthfully, I wouldn't advocate anyone getting raped or hurt. I was speaking in anger and disgust at those numbskulls who refuse to understand that inappropriate unwanted touching is damaging to people. I get especially annoyed at people who seem not to get how much worse it is when it's done by someone in authority, like a doctor, therapist, teacher. And I get even more irritated when that kind of insensitivity or dismissiveness is promoted by a so-called healer of people's psyches.

This whole is discussion is really more about the dismissive attitude of some people towards this behavior, as if it were "not such a big deal." Those arguments were shot down when they were used in the 50's, 60's and 70's about sexual harassment towards women. The attitude was "stay home and stay barefoot and pregnant or accept that behavior because you ask for it by invading male space (work).

Ie, the idea, publically promoted and defended: that women who work should have to endure inappropriate unwanted touching or remarks. We now, thank god, have laws against it. And those laws prohibit women who pull stuff on men as well. In my view, it's all disgusting and shows me an underbelly side of humanity that I dislike...and speak out against.

So, I'm sorry if my remark seemed over the top but this discussion goes back aways. The dismissive attitudes and the attacks on me for saying so are simply unacceptable.

Susan

Kathleen Hanover said:

Hi Susan,
You may not realize how your comments came off. But I have to agree with Conrad...I was pretty surprised at the vengeance with which you suggested that it would ever be a good idea for someone to be raped in prison.
I honestly don't think there's ever a circumstance in which anyone "deserves" to be raped, anywhere, and I personally would never go to a therapist who would say such a thing.

There's an NLP presupposition that says any behavior can be understood in the context of that person's worldview/experience/etc. Not condoned, but understood. I'm certainly not condoning it. It's wrong on every level to violate someone's trust and body.

If that guy had the resources to "get it," as you say, then he would "get it." Clearly, he doesn't, for whatever reason.

But with so much of sexual assault perpetrated by people who grew up being assaulted themselves, isn't it time to break the cycle instead of perpetuate it?

It's horrible that the woman was violated. It's horrible that the man somehow formulated a worldview in which that was acceptable behavior. There's plenty of horror to go around in that situation. Why add to it?

I imagine it's not very healthy for you to become so violently upset about something that happened halfway around the world between people you don't even know. There's plenty of horror, war, violence, rage, rape, everywhere. You, as an individual, can do nothing whatsoever about most of it. So why allow it to upset you so greatly?

I have very strong opinions about many, many things, but I realized a long time ago that rage and anger are like a poison. But they're a poison that you drink....hoping someone else will suffer and die.

Does that make sense?

Kathleen
"The Pretty Goodest Public Relations, Copywriting & Marketing Lady on the Planet"
Click @KathleenHanover to follow me on Twitter


Susan French said:

Alan, I wasn't saying anything about gayness at all. You missed my point, a point I made before on this subject. I had a similar discussion with someone else about a similar attempt and I was trying to make a point.

The point was about having a person experience being touched sexually in a situation that would not be preferred by them. If you're straight, which these guys obviously were, it might be a bit offensive to be grabbed by another guy because they obviously wouldn't "get it" if the point was made by saying "what if a woman touched you in that way?" The people (usually guys) who don't seem to understand that sexual invasion has more emotional ramifications than say, other kinds of personal assault. If someone, for instance, didn't "get" how disgusting it would be, perhaps, to be touched at all by someone who obviously didn't bathe often and who's hands were really gross. If they don't "get" it, perhaps they need to experience something that would create a similar effect in that person.

What I find, often, though, is that some people have a harder time than others empathizing with what others might feel. Perhaps that's all that this is about.

When someone doesn't "get" that sexual assault or invasion has a very traumatic effect, perhaps they need to experience it in order to "get it." Why not?

Perhaps people can't comment until they've experienced it first hand???

Interestingly enough, there are also folks who don't understand why bullying is traumatic and harmful either.

And BTW: are you defending this guy? Are you saying that what he did wasn't so bad? Are you saying that perhaps the woman brought it on herself? Is that what the discussion is about?

Truthfully, my reaction is more about people that don't "get it" than it it is about retribution or revenge. I just really have a hard time with people who don't "get it."

Respectfully however,

Susan

Permalink Reply by Susan French on November 23, 2009 at 8:53am

While we're on this subject, how many of you out there who seem to think that sexual assault is no big deal have dealt with the clients who's lives have been severely affected by such experiences. In ten years I've had an equal number of clients who were the children of incest. Far more who were victims of molestation. The prevailing attitude in the homes where the clients never got over it: sweep it under the rug. It's no big deal. Suck it up. And even, you're a liar or you asked for it.

Do I have strong feelings on this subject? Yes. Will they ever change? No. I will be an advocate for stopping these kinds of actions whenever they occur and to whomever they occur. What I don't get is why anyone would take an attitude of "it's no big deal. So you were touched. Get over it."

People who take advantage of weaker, more naive, and especially younger other people are disgusting to me. Period. Will I work with someone who wants to get better? Yes. I have. Many times and without judgment. I just have a hard time with the folks who think that it's "no big deal."

Susan

Permalink Reply by Doreen Cohanim C.Ht on November 23, 2009 at 9:18am

Hi Susan,

And you are very welcome, I understand your outraged about this kind of topics and who wouldn't be? MY advice to you is to give yourself a hug for caring so much and then move forward, don't worry about other peoples responses that gets under your nerves, just read it and move on, don't dowel on how clueless they are, some people may sound like it, but they can actually be caring, just didn't face this kind of situation around their life, so it looks OK to discuss about it in a calm way or in an annoying way, It is not for everyone to digest and to get an understanding of situations like this, and in my opinions, I think you need to take your mind a way from this subject and concentrate on better things to do today, so you can bring less stress into your life, and Instead send out your loving protection prayers to who ever in need, this is all you can do anyway that will have a positive vibe to it.

Hope what I am saying does make sense and have a blessed day.
Respectfully, Doreen Cohanim C.Ht

Permalink Reply by Vincent Zimmerman on November 23, 2009 at 9:32am

Michael, I agree with you. Susan came off as someone venting feelings that needed to be expressed, she wasn't spewing hatred or attacking gays. I think this thread has caused everyone's emotions to be stirred up, and everyone should remember that no one here is anyone's enemy.

Permalink Reply by GIL BOYNE on November 23, 2009 at 10:01am

HERE'S A TOPIC FOR DISCUSSION

US sailor cleared of assaulting Sydney prostitute

SYDNEY — A U.S. Navy serviceman was found not guilty Monday of sexually assaulting a prostitute at a brothel while on shore leave in Australia’s biggest city.

A New South Wales District Court jury cleared Petty Officer Timothy Davis, 25, of a charge of sexual intercourse without consent, with the aggravating factor of causing the woman actual bodily harm. The charge carries a sentence of up to 20 years in prison.

Davis was one of 3,000 Marines and Navy personnel on shore leave in Sydney after the amphibious assault ship USS Peleliu and guided missile destroyer USS Halsey arrived in the port in October, 2008.

The woman told the court she had protected, consensual sex with Davis at the brothel where she worked, but said he became aggressive when she told him his time was up and forced her to have unprotected sex. The jury was shown police photographs of scratches on the woman.

Davis denied forcing the woman to have sex, but admitted in court that he used a “lock down maneuver” to pin her to the bed when she said she wanted to stop. He told the court he backed off when she kicked him, though he said he muffled her mouth with his hand when she began to scream after he demanded his money back.

Laws regarding prostitution vary between states in Australia. Brothels are legal in New South Wales.

Davis made no comment to reporters following the verdict, but his attorney, Sam Macedone, said Davis was very happy with the outcome.

“He is glad it’s over,” Macedone said. “It has been very stressful for him.”

Davis, who has been free on bail, plans to return to San Diego, Macedone said.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Permalink Reply by Conrad Cook on November 23, 2009 at 3:09pm

Kathleen Hanover said:

Hi Susan,

You may not realize how your comments came off. But I have to agree with Conrad...I was pretty surprised at the vengeance with which you suggested that it would ever be a good idea for someone to be raped in prison.

I honestly don't think there's ever a circumstance in which anyone "deserves" to be raped, anywhere, and I personally would never go to a therapist who would say such a thing.

Well, but she's not only saying the hypnotist deserves to get raped; she's advocating it as a means of creating behavioral change.

Susan, that's really sick. Especially from you, who so often lecture the rest of us that rape or sexual harrassment is "never okay." What you really mean, apparently, is that it's never okay to rape people who are "good," but people who are "bad" are improved by raping.

In the first place, I'm sure you can imagine that a great number of rapists feel that way, and use it to justify the things they do.

In the second place, it isn't true that people who are raped, or abused in any way, are less likely to rape others. To the contrary, they're more likely to. They become rapists or child molesters, from what I understand.

You're a feminist; you might've heard the accusation that Western society is a "rape culture." I don't personally buy that -- I think it's just a way to radicalize feminists -- but prison culture is a rape culture, and when those people get out, they spread that culture into the general population. Why on Earth would you condone that?

In the third place, what you're talking about is "abuse for the victim's own good." That leads nowhere positive. It's a sick mindset.


Conrad.

Permalink Reply by Conrad Cook on November 23, 2009 at 3:19pm

Susan French said:

Hi Kathleen,

I'm sorry it came off that way and truthfully, I agree with you. This comment really comes from other discussions here that to my sensibility seem to diminish the effect that inappropriate unwanted touching has on people. Truly my irritation is aimed more towards people who think that it's "not a big deal."

Ah, so now you're admitting that your original post was directed at me, for saying that six years is a long time to go to jail for giving someone an unwanted backrub. When you wrote the anatomically vivid image of gay rape, in other words, you were intending to sexually harrass me.

She told us a story about a little boy who wouldn't stop biting people (common enough). He loved her as well. One time she got tired of it and bit him back. He was surprised, shocked and...he never bit anyone again.

I use a similar thing with my kids and grandkids when they are mean or insensitive. I try to reframe the situation in a way that they can "get it." It usually works. And I find that what works with children, often works with thickheaded or insenstitive people.

So, again: it's always wrong to sexually harrass someone, unless a "good" person, like you, is doing it to a "bad" person -- like me.

You become what you hate.


Conrad.

Permalink Reply by Kathleen Hanover on November 23, 2009 at 7:32pm

Michael et al, I can only report my impression of Susan's comments from the client perspective. I'm not a hypno. They seemed over the top to me.

I don't have any emotions around this conversation. I try to save my emotions for things I experience in real life, or things that happen to people I know personally. I don't always pull that off, but life seems better when I do.

I suppose that's my real point, Susan. You will wear out your flight or fight wiring if you continually activate it in situations that have no real impact on you personally.

I believe it is important to condemn wrong behavior, trust me, I really do. But please realize you're condemning a behavior in someone else, while you mentally engage in the same exact behavior! And isn't it true that the subconscious can't differentiate between a real event and one that is strongly imagined?

If you want to eradicate rape and sexual assault and sexual harrassment from the world (the worthiest of goals), why not start with your own mind? Stop raping yourself with your own thoughts! You deserve better than that.

I am saying this with as much kindness as possible, just to point out that one way to end suffering in the world is to stop suffering yourself first, even if it is for "good" and "justifiable" reasons. You came off (to me) as someone who's in a lot of unresolved pain and as a potential client, that is a turn-off.

My 2 cents, and worth what you paid for it!

Kathleen



Vincent Zimmerman said:

Michael, I agree with you. Susan came off as someone venting feelings that needed to be expressed, she wasn't spewing hatred or attacking gays. I think this thread has caused everyone's emotions to be stirred up, and everyone should remember that no one here is anyone's enemy.

Permalink Reply by Doreen Cohanim C.Ht on November 23, 2009 at 9:23pm

Thanks to GIL BOYNE,

Doreen Cohanim C.Ht

Permalink Reply by Jane Barter on November 24, 2009 at 11:23am

I agree this is totally unacceptable and repugnant behavior in any case! but even more so from a Hypnotherapist who is using his/her power to exploit his clients vulnerability in the hypnotic state.

What we also have to understand is that in a lot of cases sexual abuse is carried out by someone who almost always has been severally abused themselves in one way or another. They are deeply hurt and very damaged as a result....they need intense therapy and some compassion! further abuse only perpetuates their deep neurosis, self loathing and adds to the universal pool of the unconscious dark Shadow ! we all have to look at our shadow side and our judgments...if we have never suffered severe abuse or intense darkness then we may not know what we are capable of also.

Hopefully, these perpetrators can find the deep healing and therapy that may not just stop this behavior, but allow for full conscious awareness and acceptance of the consequences of their behavior. Resulting in a transformation their deep unconscious darkness.

And that the victims of this abuse can not only heal from this but be empowered to speak out, protect themselves and find forgiveness.

Blessings

Jane

Permalink Reply by Fable Goodman on November 24, 2009 at 11:53am

Well said Jane.

LOve and hugs,

Fable

Permalink Reply by Susan French on November 24, 2009 at 1:34pm

Thank you so very much Michael for hearing me, for validating my humanness and understanding that having a feeling is not the same basing your general life's responses on that feeling, nor is it the same as "acting out."

Thank you so much.

This is an old, worn-out bone of contention between Conrad and me. Conrad seems to think that when I make a comment about anything male that it comes from a generalized, angry, bitterness towards all men and it just isn't the case. Good catch. Conrad seems to think I'm a man-hater and it's just not the case either. It makes me sad after I'm over being mad.

But a thought DID occur to me after these postings and that is that many people are very uncomfortable with expressions of anger from anyone. These are the people who are usually of the "conspiracy of silence" or "don't rock the boat" school of thinking. I'm more of the let people see who I am, warts and all, school of living. It feels to me that the more open I am, the more comfortable I can be with myself. As in the expression "we are only as sick as our secrets."

Risking showing who I am makes me braver. My feelings might get hurt when someone says something mean or angry to me or just totally misses my point but, in the end, it seems to the best path to self-acceptance and self-respect. I also believe that my openness and self-disclosure helps to create a more open space for all of us to be honest.

My experience in groups is that openness and self-disclosure tends to 1) promote general human understanding of human frailties and foibles and 2) that it (hopefully) encourages other people to be braver and speak out as well.

Yes, like the rest of the human species, I feel better after a good vent or rant. It's helpful to have it received in reasonable and understanding context. I'm comfortable not being Mr. Spock...lol.

Susan


Michael Ellner said:

Hi Kathleen,
It seems to me that both you and Conrad have over-reacted to Susan's post.
Susan didn't drink her toxic feelings -- She used her post as a venting mechanism and got the toxic feelings that arose from reading about the "dirtbag" out of her system -- In my opinion that was healthy in this context. I believe that most readers and potential clients would recognize that Susan was being human and not view her as some one condoning rape.

Michael E.

Kathleen Hanover said:

Hi Susan,
You may not realize how your comments came off. But I have to agree with Conrad...I was pretty surprised at the vengeance with which you suggested that it would ever be a good idea for someone to be raped in prison. I honestly don't think there's ever a circumstance in which anyone "deserves" to be raped, anywhere, and I personally would never go to a therapist who would say such a thing. There's an NLP presupposition that says any behavior can be understood in the context of that person's worldview/experience/etc. Not condoned, but understood. I'm certainly not condoning it. It's wrong on every level to violate someone's trust and body.
If that guy had the resources to "get it," as you say, then he would "get it." Clearly, he doesn't, for whatever reason.

But with so much of sexual assault perpetrated by people who grew up being assaulted themselves, isn't it time to break the cycle instead of perpetuate it?

It's horrible that the woman was violated. It's horrible that the man somehow formulated a worldview in which that was acceptable behavior. There's plenty of horror to go around in that situation. Why add to it?

I imagine it's not very healthy for you to become so violently upset about something that happened halfway around the world between people you don't even know. There's plenty of horror, war, violence, rage, rape, everywhere. You, as an individual, can do nothing whatsoever about most of it. So why allow it to upset you so greatly?

I have very strong opinions about many, many things, but I realized a long time ago that rage and anger are like a poison. But they're a poison that you drink....hoping someone else will suffer and die.

Does that make sense?

Kathleen
"The Pretty Goodest Public Relations, Copywriting & Marketing Lady on the Planet"
Click @KathleenHanover to follow me on Twitter


Susan French said:

Alan, I wasn't saying anything about gayness at all. You missed my point, a point I made before on this subject. I had a similar discussion with someone else about a similar attempt and I was trying to make a point.

The point was about having a person experience being touched sexually in a situation that would not be preferred by them. If you're straight, which these guys obviously were, it might be a bit offensive to be grabbed by another guy because they obviously wouldn't "get it" if the point was made by saying "what if a woman touched you in that way?" The people (usually guys) who don't seem to understand that sexual invasion has more emotional ramifications than say, other kinds of personal assault. If someone, for instance, didn't "get" how disgusting it would be, perhaps, to be touched at all by someone who obviously didn't bathe often and who's hands were really gross. If they don't "get" it, perhaps they need to experience something that would create a similar effect in that person. What I find, often, though, is that some people have a harder time than others empathizing with what others might feel. Perhaps that's all that this is about. When someone doesn't "get" that sexual assault or invasion has a very traumatic effect, perhaps they need to experience it in order to "get it." Why not?

Perhaps people can't comment until they've experienced it first hand???

Interestingly enough, there are also folks who don't understand why bullying is traumatic and harmful either.

And BTW: are you defending this guy? Are you saying that what he did wasn't so bad? Are you saying that perhaps the woman brought it on herself? Is that what the discussion is about?

Truthfully, my reaction is more about people that don't "get it" than it it is about retribution or revenge. I just really have a hard time with people who don't "get it."

Respectfully however,

Susan

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