Hypnotists that are also PhDs

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Permalink Reply by Richard Nongard - HypnosisGurus.com on December 1, 2009 at 12:11pm

You will find to this day I do not advertise my degrees nor use them. I have as many degrees as a rectal thermometer (including Liberty University and USNY). I have stayed out of this debate for the same reason I no longer have any degrees on my wall, nobody cares where I got my degree or what it is in (post-grad degrees are in both Counseling and Religion). What they care about is, do I care about them, an I skilled at what I do, and can I help them. I do advertise that I am a LMFT, but the only reason I do this is that the state boards require I accuratly represent my licensure to prospective clients.
The average clients (years ago) used to see my many degrees and diplomas on the wall and me sitting with my tie behind my desk, and assumed I was so unlike them that I couldn't possibly relate to them. So I took off the tie in the office (although I still wear it sometimes when I teach or go to a business meeting), and took the degrees off the wall. In fact, I replace the degrees on the wall with some posters:
1.) A poster of poo stuck in the honey tree, with eyore, piglet, christpher, and the rest in a line trying to pull him out - with the caption "It all comes from loving honey too much" (I do a lot of work with addicts)
2.) Exerpts from "Everything I need to know I learned in kindergarden"

Now people come into my office, read the posters and start talking about what they related to. Instant rapport.
I did have ONE client in 20 years ask about my educational qualifications- he was a professor at University of Tulsa. When I assured him of my advanced degrees, licensure and alma matter, he and his wife became good clients. The rest beccame good clients becasue they liked me.....

And although I was a perpatual student, I only took one typing course, that was in high school, and I got a "D"...

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Permalink Reply by Hugh Cole on December 1, 2009 at 1:40pm

Grace said .....
I certainly did get a licking for demanding an answer since it is vitally important that we know just who we are getting our hypnosis education from.

It's great to have some fresh thoughts in this thread!! And I think Grace has stumbled back on what I thought one of the main focuses of the thread was.... Who are you getting your Hypnosis Education from anyway and why would you need a PhD to educate you. We tend to educate not only our next generation of Hypnotists... but our next generation of clients as well by who we hold up as models of the profession.
To my mind.. a great deal of the posturing with less than authentic PhD's has a great deal more to do with ... "Take my overpriced seminar" or "buy my must read book" Than it has to do with .. "I am the best hypnotist for you to see about your issue." Looking in that vain at the work of folks like Yapko, Gilligan, Rossi and Hilgard, I find it difficult to agree with the Folks that say legitimate PhD's are no better than any of the rest of us as Hypnotists, Why? Because I see thier influence on the profession and I look at the foundation on which most of the folks who say that, are building. If one really understood that... the models we adopt when learning something new are a form of trance.. It would be difficult to say that some of those "legitimate PhD's" hadn't had a hypnotic effect on the entire profession. By the same token legitimate contributors to the field without PhD's such as Gil Boyne and Master storyteller Lawrie Shaw make thier unmistakable mark on the things we teach and use in our everyday practices. I like to say that the work has survivability. ie I would pass it along to a student. or use it on a client.
I have often thought that one of the things that makes a good hypnotist per se is simply .. experience. The right mix of succesful and unsuccesful experience can make all the differance. Unsuccesful because you need to understand and experience why stuff doesn't work and be comfortable in your own skin about moving on to a differant approach. Succesful experience .. definitely because you need to produce succesful results to be succesful. Too many folks have this dogmatic ... "My way or the highway thing" going on.
In that same vain again ... I think we all as a peer group tend to see and know after a bit whether the PhD from southwestern snodgrass University with little underpinning for latest and greatest newest DVD, CD secret revelations of the Andorian Masters will be the the kind of quality nutrition we want to feed our unconcious minds. Those folks tend to float out into niche markets and fight for the hearts and minds and wallets of folks less than serious about trance work as a healing modality.
Bottom line .... Choose your Mentors carefully Limiting Beliefs are Contagious.


Hugh Cole
Making them dizzy one post at a time.

Gracie ... if DD means Doctor of Divinity ... Oh Boy are you looking to open a can of (spiritually motivated) worms

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Permalink Reply by Hugh Cole on December 1, 2009 at 2:36pm

John, That is very astute ... I good Hypnotist needs to invest in themselves to get the training needed to become a better practitioner. The investment is not only in skills and knowlege but in social contacts with like motivated (not necessarily like minded) people. One of the reasons I love Scott's concept of Hypnothoughts (and the Hypnosummit) is that it gives you an opportunity to interact and grow with people of differant disciplines, viewpoints and skill levels. You can design your own "growth curve' and you are not stuck in mandatory CEU land where you may or may not be comfortable learning from the suggested (with or without PhD) expert.
People who pay for a PhD from southwestern Snodgrass are missing the point. They have already assumed they are the expert and just need a credential that says so, They are not about learning and growing as you are when you get a legitimate PhD, They are about "I'm better than you, so listen to me". Once you make the decision you are at the top. the only way to go is down.
Choose your mentors wisely ... limiting beliefs are contagious.

Hugh Cole
The Pretty Goodest Hypnotist on the Planet.

John R. Brochu said:

James:
I found it interesting those that have a PhD, don’t use that outside of their discipline. One Phony P-h-D e mailed me and said he had a doctor of clinical Hypnotherapy from American Pacific University In Honolulu. APU is a mill that has closed down.

My question is why didn’t these Phony PhDs put that time and money into becoming better Hypnotists? The phony PhD is not a marketing tool it’s a target! This issue will become the lever by which the medical community will move the hypnosis world into their control.

Yours in Health,
John Brochu

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Permalink Reply by James Hazlerig on December 1, 2009 at 3:25pm

Hugh wrote: "I have often thought that one of the things that makes a good hypnotist per se is simply .. experience."

Hear, hear.

I consider myself an intermediate hypnotist, a journeyman if you will. My 250-hour certification course was the apprenticeship, and I'm now travelling (virtually, and by means of books) to learn what I can from various masters and flesh out what I learned during my apprenticeship.

I recently listened to an audiobook called Advanced Hypnotherapy. I was surprised to find that there wasn't a single concept in it that I wasn't familiar with. In fact, all of it had been covered during my initial training. And I've been similarly disappointed a number of times recently when examining works that purport to be "advanced"--they are intermediate at best.

So I've begun to suspect that truly advanced hypnosis can't be learned from a book, and possibly not from a workshop or a course. It can only be learned only by experience, practice, success, and feedback.

That's my suspicion anyway. But what do I know? I'm only intermediate. :-)

Sorry to have wandered so far off-topic. Back on the issue of fake Ph.D.s--anyone who reads my blog posts here knows that a few months back, I encountered someone who had been told she couldn't be hypnotized, and told this by an "expert." She knew he was an expert because he had "a Ph.D. in psychology." As it turned out, it was a bogus degree. So fake credentials are not only an insult to those with legit degrees, but also to those of us who don't put on airs and claim false achievements.

This has been a really great thread, imho,

James

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Permalink Reply by Richard Nongard - HypnosisGurus.com on December 1, 2009 at 6:00pm

James,

While I respect your concern about what you have called "fake" degrees, it really isn't that simple.   Things change over time.  For example at some point in this thread the degree mill that awarded John Grey's degree was shut down by state regulators.  Many point to John Grey as an example of someone using a fake degree who is well known.  Actually, the school was shut down 15 years after it awarded Grey's degree, and at the time it was awarded, the school (Columbia Pacific) was a state approved school that permitted graduates to sit for the psychology exam.  In the 1970's and early 780's California had a system of approval for schools that was on par with regional accreditation and AT THAT TIME those degrees were as valid as any other degree.  Poor John Grey, he really has been victimized by bad press 15 years after the school was driven into the ground.  And many others are in this boat. I know of a licensed psychologist (actually more than one) with a degree from Newport University, a school that has  had a good reputation since its founding in 1976, but now appears to be struggling due to changing legislation (including at least one leading NGH member and some other California hypnosis old-timers)
 
Of course when one talks about regional accreditation one is usually talking about the 6 regional bodies approved by the US department of education.   But did you know the USDOE also recognizes several other accrediting agencies including the DETC (Distance Education Training Council, TRACS, and several other agencies).   The above example are school that went from approved to the scrap heap.   However some school OVER TIME have improved.  One is American Pacific University, which at one point was an unaccredited school some would have labeled a degree mill.   When they moved to Hawaii and become compliant with the laws, they changed the programs offered (they used to offer degrees specifically in hypnotherapy) to trans-personal psychology degrees, sought DETC approval and now at least in the eyes of the US Department of Education, have the same level of accreditation as the University of Texas or any regional accrediting agency. Smart move it you got an unaccredited degree in hypnotherapy from them 6 years ago!
 
Yes there are also degree mills.  There are also school that are unaccredited that offer LEGAL degrees, from state licensed schools.   One such school is Clayton College of Natural Health.  There have been many state licensed schools, including the no longer licensed Beyer State University, that have are or have been legal schools, yet unaccredited.
 
Yes the LAW in some states restricts the use of these unaccredited but legal state licensed schools, but other than Oregon the restrictions really are not meaningful.   On the flip side, some of these states are very contradictory about what is and what is not accepted.   Texas for example defines accreditation as being regionally accredited (including DETC, TRACS, and other lesser know accrediting agencies that are USDOE approved) OR accredited by the government in the country in which the degree was awarded.  Yet for years Texas has published a list that has included schools that are accredited by the gov't of Nevis and St. Kitts.  Is Texas now in the business of accrediting foreign governments accrediting standards? Get a fine for using one of these degrees in Texas, and you have a winable legal challenge because other parts of the law PERMIT these degrees.
 
Then of course there are the degrees that are exempt from any of these state regulations and accreditation, even Oregon's tough standards.  These are religious degrees.  I do not know where Dr. Elner got his Rev. Dr. D.D.  but that fact of the matter is the legal use of such a degree cannot be stopped when used in conjunction with religious services (see the USA constitution) regardless of the degree being granted for a $50 donation and  requiring no work (Universal Life Church) or by one of the many religious school that specifically DO NOT WANT accreditation for religious reason (or those who do not qualify because of bias in the accreditation process like the metaphysical schools), or through years of study at a well known theology school like Yale Divinity School.
 
Some of these religious schools (that are unaccredited) require virtually no work, yet others demand (some of the independent Baptist schools that want nothing to do with governmental approval) the same work and maybe even more work than an accredited school of theology such as Dallas Theological Seminary.
 
I could write for hours on the subject of laws,accreditation, validity, usefulness, and yet there will still be gray areas.   It is not easy to say, "This is a fake degree" and "This is a real degree" simply based on accreditation. There are many other factors.   Now in other countries it may be more cut and dry (like New Zeland) but here in the good old USA, Texas can put a law on the books, even a contractictory law, and it does not settle the matter. In the end, “your judge might be different”. Of course as the BBC found out, saying someone has a degree mill degree can be costly. Remember they lost a civil suit by Paul McKenna because they misunderstood the accreditation process, legal status and nature of the school he attended.
 
I also think that in the end the value of a hypnotist is not going to be determined by his or her degree (or lack of degree) but by the quality of there one-one training they receive, but even more important the personality characteristics the person brings to the table to being with.   I think to some extend the communication patterns, interpersonal skills and natural tendencies one bring is far more important that training in many cases.  Is the person empathetic?  Are they good at assessment?   Sure education helps these things and can teach skills, but I have met hypnotists with PhD's in psychology from University of Oklahoma that are no good, and hypnotherapists with degrees from Newport University, Am-PAC and the Universal Life Church that are far better.   
 
The debate over education will never be decided, even the states can't do it.  The lists published by Texas, and even Oregon are lip service to the truth rather than meaningful, and in the end many of them would not stand to a constitutional challenge (Texas has a few valid religious schools on its list) and are unenforceable.

I would bet there are a few people on this board with legitimate degrees from or Columbia Pacific that want to kick themselves, and others with what some may have considered considered questionable hypnotherapy degrees from APU that are now very proud of their Alma matter. (By the way APU is still on the Oregon and Texas lists even though it IS 100% Accredited at the present time).

My personal opinion- Degrees have value. But a lot of it is show. I think accreditation is a lot like the TSA. In every city the regulations are different, the screeners look for different thins, and use different equipment. And in the end, they probably won't prevent the next act of terror. All the hassle at the airport really is just a show of force, rather than anything truly meaningful. Same thing with accreditation.

This degree good. That degree bad. It is not that simple.

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Permalink Reply by Richard Nongard - HypnosisGurus.com on December 1, 2009 at 6:12pm

In the end, I also have my doubts that accreditation is even a good thing. Less government regulation in life. The marketplace IS good at weeding out the wheat from the chaff. No government (in any area) will be able to do as good a job as the private sector. At the time I did my Masters degree (from a regionally accredited University) in Counseling Psychology, many other schools were opening counseling programs (the late 1980's). Each school was colored by its professors and the experiences they brought. My chief mentor was a quirky Rogarian- because that is what he learned 30 years before me. There was little in the way of formal requirements and schools had a lot of latitude to teach what the professors wanted to teach. I learned from his 30 years of experiences, rather than the notes he was supposed to teach from. That was a breeding ground for creativity. Almost 20 years later, we now have national standards in counseling programs and almost every school teaches the exact same curriculum for fear of loosing the accreditation of professional associations like the APA, NASW, AAMFT, ACA or other schools. My friends who are university professors feel stifled and schools teach to the test rather then encouraging creativity. Fritz Perls. Virginia Satir and Milton Erickson all taught at the University. In the 1950's and 60's they were free to teach. And they spawned students who taught great things (i.e. Richard Bandler). I bet if they lived today none one of them would have been allowed to teach what they taught (because of the restrictions in accreditation and teaching to the test) and none of them would have spawned great students if they were teaching today. I actually think that if they did now what they did then, they actually would have been fired. So much for national standards doing our profession (or any) much good. And yes, for those who cannot tell, politically I am a Libertarian.

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Permalink Reply by Richard Nongard - HypnosisGurus.com on December 1, 2009 at 6:19pm

Oops in the prior post I stated "(By the way APU is still on the Oregon and Texas lists even though it IS 100% Accredited at the present time)." I just checked both lists, and niether of them currenlty have APU listed. And this is as it should be, since they are DETC accredited, which is an accrediting agency recognized by the US Dept. of Education.

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Permalink Reply by Reg Blackwood - The Quicknotist on December 1, 2009 at 7:00pm

Great posts Richard, Thanks!

Here in New Zealand, while it is illegal to call yourself Doctor if you are working in the health arena and have no medical doctorate, the law remains untested.

I say IF you are working in the health arena because there is no issue with a car mechanic calling himself "The Engine Doctor" and ironically on stage a Hypnotist could even legally call himself "Doctor Hypno" or similar without any problems.

However, if that same Hypnotist used any non-medical doctorate to call himself Doctor when advertising to or working with therapy clients, he'd likely find himself falling foul of that untested law.

But as you say, it's not clear cut by any means.

Because, like many Hypnotists, I pick up therapy clients after virtually every show, I wonder how the same law would view a Hypnotist (who also happened to do therapy) calling himself by a stage name which included the word "Doctor?"

He could surely argue it's just a stage name yet the law might consider it to be misleading, false advertising of his other activities.

Reg
http://quicknotist.com/

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Permalink Reply by James Hazlerig on December 1, 2009 at 8:21pm

Richard,

You make a lot of excellent points, but in my defense, let me say that fairly early on in this thread, I made a distinction between degrees from non-accredited institutions that actually do teach and have standards vs. degrees bought from diploma mills.

James

Richard Nongard - HypnosisGurus.com said:

James,

While I respect your concern about what you have called "fake" degrees, it really isn't that simple.

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Permalink Reply by Richard Clark MFT on December 1, 2009 at 8:48pm

Some very good points here Richard however...

When you are applying for a job (public, private, governmental, profit, non-profit, ...) and looking to get the pay grade afforded a PhD in any area of endeavor (criminology, anthropology, public health, chemistry, engineering, education, sports management, marketing, ...), the HR department has no problem whatsoever determining if the degree is what is widely held as accredited or doesn't make the grade.

Richard

Richard Nongard - HypnosisGurus.com said:

In the end, I also have my doubts that accreditation is even a good thing. Less government regulation in life. The marketplace IS good at weeding out the wheat from the chaff. No government (in any area) will be able to do as good a job as the private sector. At the time I did my Masters degree (from a regionally accredited University) in Counseling Psychology, many other schools were opening counseling programs (the late 1980's). Each school was colored by its professors and the experiences they brought. My chief mentor was a quirky Rogarian- because that is what he learned 30 years before me. There was little in the way of formal requirements and schools had a lot of latitude to teach what the professors wanted to teach. I learned from his 30 years of experiences, rather than the notes he was supposed to teach from. That was a breeding ground for creativity. Almost 20 years later, we now have national standards in counseling programs and almost every school teaches the exact same curriculum for fear of loosing the accreditation of professional associations like the APA, NASW, AAMFT, ACA or other schools. My friends who are university professors feel stifled and schools teach to the test rather then encouraging creativity. Fritz Perls. Virginia Satir and Milton Erickson all taught at the University. In the 1950's and 60's they were free to teach. And they spawned students who taught great things (i.e. Richard Bandler). I bet if they lived today none one of them would have been allowed to teach what they taught (because of the restrictions in accreditation and teaching to the test) and none of them would have spawned great students if they were teaching today. I actually think that if they did now what they did then, they actually would have been fired. So much for national standards doing our profession (or any) much good. And yes, for those who cannot tell, politically I am a Libertarian.

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Permalink Reply by Richard Nongard - HypnosisGurus.com on December 1, 2009 at 9:00pm

See the problem is, what is teaching? and again the same problem, whose standards? In light of the points I made in the previous thread it is pretty hard to even define diploma mill. Sure a non-legal, unaccredited school with a PO box selling a degree for $399 with only one book report due is obvious, but in many cases it is really not this cut and dry. A 10000 word thesis? Is that legit? a 20000 word thesis? 50000? 100000? As the unaccredited schools get regulated away, the homogenization of education becomes even more likely.
Although I have not seen much of the coursework from a school like APU or others, I really like the idea - accredited or not. The reason is simple: We have no graduate schools offering hypnotherapy degrees and there NEVER will be, because the APA and the psychology department will never allow it to exist independent and as its own profession.
There will NEVER be an accredited hypnosis degree, unless it falls under the training of the psychology department - and that will simply be more cult-of-Erickson ASCH type training, teaching to the test. Even APU had to change hypnotherapy degrees to fall under the banner of trans-personal psychology to gain accreditation - and give up the PhD program.
I suspect some of the DCH and PhD hypnotherapy programs are rather dubious, but I am sure others are excellent, especially those that require prior certification and build on the life-experiences of practicing hypnotherapists. I really don't think all of these DCH folks just wanted to misrepresent themselves as doctors, but really did want an educational program that was in line with the theory of hypnosis they hold, seeing it as independent of psychology and not under the control of ASCH.

Remember, I was never a part of the non-psychology hypnosis world 5 years ago, staying in the bubble of licensed mental health professionals. I scoffed at the credentials of the DCH. Today I am much less dogmatic, seeing them not as wannabe's but rather people marching to the tune of a different drummer, much like naturopaths, acupuncturists and chiropractors who refused to let the AMA control them professionally and massage therapists/personal trainers who refused to let the physical therapists control them.

In the original example you gave of a hypnotherapist giving a bad answer "You are one who cannot be hypnotized", I have certainly met more psychologists from accredited schools who hold this position than DCH types, who tend to have a better understanding of practical hypnosis. In fact, some of the psychologist developed scales of hypnotizability used in research make the assumption many are unable to be hypnotized. Perhaps the problem was that the DCH school they attended tried to make themselves look more legitimate by using textbooks from psychologists rather than professional hypnotists? The DCH people I have met with DCH degrees seem to be pretty skilled for the most part, and rival most of the psychologists I know.

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Permalink Reply by Ronit Klemens, PhD on December 2, 2009 at 3:45am

Hi Grace, Thank you for responding to my post. There are a few statements in your response that inspire me to post a response to your response. Here is the real deal: There are people who need assistance with very difficult issues, where client-centered therapy does not seem to get results, and where people are not successful in healing themselves. For example, a long while ago, I worked in a psych unit in a maximum security prison. Most of the people there had low cognitive ability and education and high emotional issues, histories of abuse, addictions, and some daunting disorders. My job was to assist them get into main stream life, to stand on their own two feet, and to prevent them from revolving back into prison.

Since then, I have been working primarily with this population by day, on the other side of the prison wall, doing my very best to prevent them from getting back there. It is a tragedy that this population is growing quite rapidly, and becoming younger by the minute, to include so much preventable homicides and suicides. It is also a tragedy that there are not enough of us in mainstream assisting them. But here I am, doing the work, and… getting a cold shower for having a PhD.

No matter what degree you have, just do the work needed to be done to help those who are having a hard time helping themselves. Chose your theory or technique and go for it. Once face-to-face, you might just possibly find that a little education is a little beneficial for the work you do and that more education is more beneficial. You might also find that as you stay in school and seek answers to questions that you might have, the degrees start to pile up. You are welcome to disregard them if they do not mean anything to you, but no matter what you gain or not gain in school, see if you can help where help is badly needed anyway you can. And... if you find something that works well, tell us about it from your own experiences as a helper. Regardless of degree, it would be much appreciated. Ronit

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