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IBS Hypnotherapy on the NHS...free at the point of delivery...It's immoral?!
I've just had a phonecall from a hypnotherapist who thinks my service is running private practitioners out of business, and as such is unfair and immoral, and the clients/patients will suffer as a result.
I was told that the caller doesn't like people giving hypnosis away free, paid for through taxpayers' money and not chargeable to the client personally, or at a rate of £25 (not sure of the relevance of that figure) because it devalues hypnosis.
The caller thought I was being immoral and unfair to clients and hypnotists alike, and didn't agree that they could apply for any further jobs which come up on the NHS (they were concerned about services like mine 'springing up all over the place').
They were rather concerned that services like mine would run them out of business, and were at pains to tell me that they were investing lots of money in their education.
I pointed out that IBS has a prevalence of up to 20% in any population, and that NHS services follow NICE guidelines (which leaves private practitioners a whole year to see these people before any NHS service would interfere), and as such, there would never be sufficient NHS hypnotherapists to help all those who require it, leaving plenty for private practice both before and after NHS interventions.
My priority is the patient; first and always. What's theirs, do you think?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by tom keane on -
I was wondering are you getting a free room at a hospital that your running the IBS sessions from?
and are you doing the sessions for free or at a reduced fee?
are the hospital advertising your service for free?
if so I do think this is unfair but I'm not sure if I would call it immoral.
as your reply to the therapist who called there is obviously lots of work out there but having to pay for all the above when someone is getting it free makes it allot harder to do business and therefore makes it less likely that the clients will have many other therapists to go to because they may go out of business.
That said if you were to stick to just IBS and then sent an of your clients to people who come with issues that your not experienced at treating then it obviously would work in the other therapists advantage as you would be doing there marketing for them.
P.S. as you have pointed out there is a large number of people who want your service and I'm sure that you would not be able to see all of them so maybe if you and the other therapist were to work together you could help even more people if the other therapist was willing to work under the same conditions as you and that you make sure that they are competent and have relevant insurance training and CRB.
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Permalink Reply by Henxy on -
Hi Tom,
Please would you explain why you think what I am or might be doing is unfair?
Thanks.
tom keane said:I was wondering are you getting a free room at a hospital that your running the IBS sessions from?
and are you doing the sessions for free or at a reduced fee?
are the hospital advertising your service for free?
if so I do think this is unfair but I'm not sure if I would call it immoral.
as your reply to the therapist who called there is obviously lots of work out there but having to pay for all the above when someone is getting it free makes it allot harder to do business and therefore makes it less likely that the clients will have many other therapists to go to because they may go out of business.
That said if you were to stick to just IBS and then sent an of your clients to people who come with issues that your not experienced at treating then it obviously would work in the other therapists advantage as you would be doing there marketing for them.
P.S. as you have pointed out there is a large number of people who want your service and I'm sure that you would not be able to see all of them so maybe if you and the other therapist were to work together you could help even more people if the other therapist was willing to work under the same conditions as you and that you make sure that they are competent and have relevant insurance training and CRB.
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Permalink Reply by tom keane on
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if the other therapist is having to pay for advertising, renting a room and other costs out of client fee's and you are getting this free by working with the NHS its unfair because there isn't a level playing field for the other therapists in the area.
If you are then telling the NHS patients that you also help people with phobias, anxiety, stress, smoking then you will not just be taking clients for IBS but also potential clients form the other therapist.
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Permalink Reply by Henxy on
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No-one makes anyone pay for advertising (you don't HAVE to advertise).
No playing field is ever level.
Other therapists charge whatever they want... It would be morally reprehensible for me to charge (I have turned down several requests for private treatment on the back of the NHS work for this reason).
I am not working WITH the NHS, I am working FOR them. Do you think your local nurse or GP pays to use their room?
I don't 'tell patients' anything. In my care for them and their IBS, I do my very best to get them happy in all areas of their lives... and by doing this, their IBS symptoms improve and disappear. How TF is that the wrong thing to do? My only NHS remit is IBS, I have to decline any other requests for hypnotherapy, I can't see anyone who hasn't got IBS.
By being a BETTER therapist than another one therapist can gain 'potential clients from the other therapist'. It's not my responsibility to be rubbish in my job so that I get sacked so that someone with ideas about making their millions out of people's suffering can bleed them dry.
I have always done my best for patients and clients, and will continue to do so, regardless of the greed of others.
tom keane said:if the other therapist is having to pay for advertising, renting a room and other costs out of client fee's and you are getting this free by working with the NHS its unfair because there isn't a level playing field for the other therapists in the area.
If you are then telling the NHS patients that you also help people with phobias, anxiety, stress, smoking then you will not just be taking clients for IBS but also potential clients form the other therapist.
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Permalink Reply by John Maclean on -
How on earth is what Henxy is doing "unfair" on other therapists? I think some people need a reality check. Does the same apply to Doctors who work in the NHS? Is it unfair on Doctors who work in the private sector that they are doing so? Of course it isn't and it is ridiculous to think that way. I'm afraid that this smacks of the "green eyed monster" and I for one would love it if Hypnotherapy was available through the NHS. Should my wife who runs a private mathematics tutoring service complain that free state education is stealing her livelihood? No, and she would be rightly laughed at if she did. Come down from your high horses. It sounds like you are suffering from altitude sickness!! :-)
Henxy said:No-one makes anyone pay for advertising (you don't HAVE to advertise).
No playing field is ever level. Other therapists charge whatever they want... It would be morally reprehensible for me to charge (I have turned down several requests for private treatment on the back of the NHS work for this reason). I am not working WITH the NHS, I am working FOR them. Do you think your local nurse or GP pays to use their room?
I don't 'tell patients' anything. In my care for them and their IBS, I do my very best to get them happy in all areas of their lives... and by doing this, their IBS symptoms improve and disappear. How TF is that the wrong thing to do? My only NHS remit is IBS, I have to decline any other requests for hypnotherapy, I can't see anyone who hasn't got IBS.
By being a BETTER therapist than another one therapist can gain 'potential clients from the other therapist'. It's not my responsibility to be rubbish in my job so that I get sacked so that someone with ideas about making their millions out of people's suffering can bleed them dry.
I have always done my best for patients and clients, and will continue to do so, regardless of the greed of others.
tom keane said:if the other therapist is having to pay for advertising, renting a room and other costs out of client fee's and you are getting this free by working with the NHS its unfair because there isn't a level playing field for the other therapists in the area.
If you are then telling the NHS patients that you also help people with phobias, anxiety, stress, smoking then you will not just be taking clients for IBS but also potential clients form the other therapist.
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Permalink Reply by tom keane on
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your write no one has to pay for advertising but if they don't were do they get their clients from?
your write there's no such thing as a level playing field, a capitalist economy wouldn't work if there was but it also wouldn't work if there was a monopoly.
your right therapists charge what ever they want although the price is determined by the market.
the other therapist called for a reason and when replying to a post like the one you've started with then i always try to think about what the other persons point of view may be.
if your working for the nhs and only doing IBS then there is no reason for the other person to call you and complain, if anything they should be grateful that your making the public more aware about how hypnosis to help them.
but as i said above if you then start to use the work you do with the nhs as a way to start a private practice it would be obvious how this would be unfair.
your right that nurses, GP's don't have to pay for their room they work in promises paid for by the NHS but most hypnotherapists do have to unless they work from home and that means they need to earn money to pay for it out of money they earn from hypnotherapy.
your absolutely right you should be the best therapist you can and so should the therapist who called you that is healthy competition which can only be good for everyone.
you say you will do the best for clients despite the greed of others
and as you have said there is enough clients out there for plenty of therapists but from your first post you didn't say that you were only seeing people for IBS and it read as if you were getting free premise and free advertising from the NHS, if this was the case then it's obvious why this would be unfair to the other therapist.
I think it is a good idea to think about the point the other therapist was trying to say as they obviously called you for a reason.
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Permalink Reply by Henxy on
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I've never needed to advertise, and I've had more private clients than I could deal with in the past... All before my current NHS role.
I don't think that the price is determined by the market. I think the future of the hypnotherapist is determined by the market. If potential clients think they're going to be ripped off, they'll avoid you. If they think your skills are worth the high price that 'you' charge, they'll happily pay it. (I know of a consultant gastroenterologist who can command £1000 per consultation).
I always consider the (at least) 3 sides to every story... So by posting my thread, I had already considered what the other person's perspective may be, having chosen to continue to speak to them, despite their accusations.
You probably don't realise that I would be struck off the nursing register for grooming potential private clients. I have no need to abuse my privlieged position, and the consequences for me would be dire if I were to be the reprobate who would use their NHS post to gain private clients. I have declined a patient's request to see them privately to deal with agoraphobia so that they can come to my NHS clinic for IBS. They and their family wanted to pay me privately instead. I have made a couple of home visits in order to help the person to come to my clinic. I have not charged a penny, and I won't. They asked me what CDs I sell, as they also wanted a CD which wasn't IBS-specific. I gave them my private practice CD which was the most relevant to their other main problem. They wanted to pay me, but I declined on the grounds that it would be inappropriate, as I was seeing them for NHS care. I gave them for free my own CD, made with my own equipment and in my own time.
I had to laugh as your comment that 'nurses, GP's don't have to pay for their room they work in promises paid for by the NHS' Promises! If only you knew! I really don't see your distinction between it being ok that the NHS funds premises for its doctors and nurses, and not ok that it funds premises for its hypnotherapists.
Actually, I said that I have always done my best for patients and clients, and will continue to do so, regardless of the greed of others.
The thread title tells you what I do for a living... One click will show you the discussions I've participated in to show you my main area of specialty and my employment situation.
'It' didn't read any way at all. YOU read it that way. I mentioned nothing about my getting free premises or free advertising.
Have you ever known anyone have a problem that a new GP surgery was 'advertised for free' so that patients actually knew that it existed and where it was? Would it be better to keep my clinics secret so that noone knows they can benefit from IBS hypnotherapy without having to check their bank balance first?
The research for IBS was done by the NHS and by its staff. It would be wrong for NHS patients to not be able to benefit without having to pay someone in the private sector who may or may not manipulate the sessions so that the client needs more of them, and so has to pay more.
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Permalink Reply by tom keane on
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I think I Need to clarify what I have said.
the reason I brought up the cost of advertising and premises and all the other costs it takes to run a practice is because form the other therapists perspective they would have to pay for all of that themselves which they then would have to charge to the client but Someone on the NHS would not have any of those costs as you have pointed out.
I can't speak for the other therapist but it would seem to me that they would think it was unfair because of that.
you asked two questions 1 is what your doing immoral? and 2 is what your doing unfair to the other therapist who called?
the question 1 I said no its not immoral and apart from the therapist who called I think that most people would agree that giving people free treatment isn't immoral.
for question two I have answers by giving tow situations one were it would be unfair to the therapist and one were it wouldn't.
the first is if you were being paid by the NHS to give hypnotherapy to clients for a range of issues and you didnt have any of the overheads that the other therapist has.
the second is if you only stick to IBS then it is not unfair to the other therapist because there is plenty of other issues that they can see people for.
as you have said you are only doing IBS sessions and therefore its not unfair to the other therapist because they have a ton of other issues that they can deal with.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Ellner on -
Hi Tom. Henxy, et al,
I am all for putting oneself in other's shoes and in my opinion Henxy's caller is one of those people who have to blame others for their failure to build a successful practice... In my opinion it would be great for hypnos every where if the NHS expanded the services it covered for hypnotists in their employ...
No offense intended Thom -- I believe appropriate response would have been to tell the caller to screw off --
Michael E.
tom keane said:I think I Need to clarify what I have said.
the reason I brought up the cost of advertising and premises and all the other costs it takes to run a practice is because form the other therapists perspective they would have to pay for all of that themselves which they then would have to charge to the client but Someone on the NHS would not have any of those costs as you have pointed out.
I can't speak for the other therapist but it would seem to me that they would think it was unfair because of that.
you asked two questions 1 is what your doing immoral? and 2 is what your doing unfair to the other therapist who called?
the question 1 I said no its not immoral and apart from the therapist who called I think that most people would agree that giving people free treatment isn't immoral.
for question two I have answers by giving tow situations one were it would be unfair to the therapist and one were it wouldn't.
the first is if you were being paid by the NHS to give hypnotherapy to clients for a range of issues and you didnt have any of the overheads that the other therapist has.
the second is if you only stick to IBS then it is not unfair to the other therapist because there is plenty of other issues that they can see people for.
as you have said you are only doing IBS sessions and therefore its not unfair to the other therapist because they have a ton of other issues that they can deal with.
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Permalink Reply by Henxy on
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tom keane said:
Did I? Where?!> you asked two questions 1 is what your doing immoral? and 2 is what your doing unfair to the other therapist who called?
tom keane said:
Forgive my ignorance, but I really can't care about self-serving 'therapists' whose priority is their own business (and therefore profit). I will do whatever I am commissioned to do; and I am not going to be held to account by someone who does not have the patient's best interests at heart. Anyone who has dealt with IBS realises that there is a myriad of other problems that accompany the symptoms. This means that I cannot not help them with problems that aren't specifically IBS.>
the first is if you were being paid by the NHS to give hypnotherapy to clients for a range of issues and you didnt have any of the overheads that the other therapist has.
the second is if you only stick to IBS then it is not unfair to the other therapist because there is plenty of other issues that they can see people for.
as you have said you are only doing IBS sessions and therefore its not unfair to the other therapist because they have a ton of other issues that they can deal with.
I refuse to apologise or be contrite for serving the British public well.
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Permalink Reply by Duncan Murray on -
Ding-Ding! End of round one!!
Been away for a few days and the pot is simmering over!!
Still totally agree with Henxy....NHS funded research...NHS moved IBS into Primary Care (GPs)...NICE published full clinical guidelines on the care of IBS in Primary Care....Hypnos jump on guidelines and promote Hypnotherapy for IBS (usually with inadequate/incorrect training)...Hypnos promote their private practice on the basis of all of the above to promote their profitability....
Gut Orientated Therapy theoretically belongs to the NHS, but Whorwell shares his research for free...I use it and Henxy has checked and corrected my work/interpretation to ensure it is correct...
This complaining Hypno obviously doesn't have the faintest idea where hypnotherapy being highly efficacious for the treatment/management of IBS comes from and to whom he owes a debt of gratitude....I bet he doesn't even know that it is multi-factorial and not 'just about gut motility'.....
What a PRAT!
Perhaps you should email him the youtube link for DILLIGAF as that is all anyone should consider his opinions to be worth - me I had IBS for over 16 years...badly - my IBS clients I aim to get them as well as possible as quickly as possible...not just for the benefit of my bank balance - in fact I have totally ignored one system that stretched it out to 6 sessions...just for the sake (apparently) of making it six sessions and to justify a 'system' - what crap - I do it in 4 sessions and empower my clients, not make them dependant on a 'product'.
Go for it Henxy and if he rings back question his morals!
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Permalink Reply by tom keane on
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You have said you "really can't care about self-serving 'therapists' whose priority is their own business (and therefore profit)"
most of there people on here are therapists who run private practices for profit.
nobody on here talked to the other therapist so nobody can say for certain why they think what your doing is unfair apart from the therapist who phoned. I would have ask them why they thought it was unfair.
I agree with M.Ellner if hypnosis was made available on the nhs it would a good thing for all hypnoherapist as Professor David Spiegel said on the 6th June 2009, to the British medical profession.
the point I'm making is the therapist who called isn't on here so they can not give their reasons for think that.
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