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IBS Hypnotherapy on the NHS...free at the point of delivery...It's immoral?!
I've just had a phonecall from a hypnotherapist who thinks my service is running private practitioners out of business, and as such is unfair and immoral, and the clients/patients will suffer as a result.
I was told that the caller doesn't like people giving hypnosis away free, paid for through taxpayers' money and not chargeable to the client personally, or at a rate of £25 (not sure of the relevance of that figure) because it devalues hypnosis.
The caller thought I was being immoral and unfair to clients and hypnotists alike, and didn't agree that they could apply for any further jobs which come up on the NHS (they were concerned about services like mine 'springing up all over the place').
They were rather concerned that services like mine would run them out of business, and were at pains to tell me that they were investing lots of money in their education.
I pointed out that IBS has a prevalence of up to 20% in any population, and that NHS services follow NICE guidelines (which leaves private practitioners a whole year to see these people before any NHS service would interfere), and as such, there would never be sufficient NHS hypnotherapists to help all those who require it, leaving plenty for private practice both before and after NHS interventions.
My priority is the patient; first and always. What's theirs, do you think?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Henxy on -
Cheers, Duncan! :-)
Duncan Murray said:Ding-Ding! End of round one!!
Been away for a few days and the pot is simmering over!!
Still totally agree with Henxy....NHS funded research...NHS moved IBS into Primary Care (GPs)...NICE published full clinical guidelines on the care of IBS in Primary Care....Hypnos jump on guidelines and promote Hypnotherapy for IBS (usually with inadequate/incorrect training)...Hypnos promote their private practice on the basis of all of the above to promote their profitability....
Gut Orientated Therapy theoretically belongs to the NHS, but Whorwell shares his research for free...I use it and Henxy has checked and corrected my work/interpretation to ensure it is correct...
This complaining Hypno obviously doesn't have the faintest idea where hypnotherapy being highly efficacious for the treatment/management of IBS comes from and to whom he owes a debt of gratitude....I bet he doesn't even know that it is multi-factorial and not 'just about gut motility'.....
What a PRAT!
Perhaps you should email him the youtube link for DILLIGAF as that is all anyone should consider his opinions to be worth - me I had IBS for over 16 years...badly - my IBS clients I aim to get them as well as possible as quickly as possible...not just for the benefit of my bank balance - in fact I have totally ignored one system that stretched it out to 6 sessions...just for the sake (apparently) of making it six sessions and to justify a 'system' - what crap - I do it in 4 sessions and empower my clients, not make them dependant on a 'product'.
Go for it Henxy and if he rings back question his morals!
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Permalink Reply by Henxy on
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tom keane said:You have said you "really can't care about self-serving 'therapists' whose priority is their own business (and therefore profit)"
I did indeed say that. Unfortunately, you have chosen to delete the important word from your reading of that sentence; and that word is PRIORITY...and possibly, those words are 'self-serving'. I put 'therapists' in inverted commas, because, IMHO, a therapist has an altruistic trait which is to care for their client (or in my case, patient). Others would be firstly business people, not therapists.
tom keane said:
And? I am not objecting to private practices in principle or otherwise. I am objecting to being objected to for earning less than I would privately to give people who couldn't afford hypnotherapy privately the chance to benefit from it.most of there people on here are therapists who run private practices for profit.
tom keane said:
Yes, someone DID talk to 'the other therapist'. I did!nobody on here talked to the other therapist so nobody can say for certain why they think what your doing is unfair apart from the therapist who phoned. I would have ask them why they thought it was unfair.
And EVERYBODY can say for certain why they think something; because as an individual, we can only ever speak from 'IMHO'- and not for anyone else. And I DID ask the person what their problem was! AND I've shared it here!
tom keane said:
Hypnotherapy IS available on the NHS; I'm doing it! (And you seemed to have some objection to it earlier!). I am doing my darndest to make it more widely available than in just my neck of the woods. THAT is exactly what the 'other therapist' said they objected to!I agree with M.Ellner if hypnosis was made available on the nhs it would a good thing for all hypnoherapist as Professor David Spiegel said on the 6th June 2009, to the British medical profession.
And TBH, I don't really care what Spiegel says. The HIP isn't exactly my idea of genius; but each to their own... I'm not entirely sure he spoke to the British medical profession... There's far too many of them to have sat and listened all at the same time; and all those hospitals and surgeries that need doctors couldn't have spared the entire profession, even just for an hour! ;-P
tom keane said:
How do you know whether that therapist is a member of Hypnothoughts? Do you know something about them that I don't?!the point I'm making is the therapist who called isn't on here so they can not give their reasons for think that.
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Permalink Reply by tom keane on -
I dont know iof the therapist is on here or not if you know who they are so it would be easy for you to check and if they are you could let them know about the disscusion you started that way they could respopnd in theier own words. if they are not on here you could give them the web address. obviously its up to them if they want to respond.
the medical profession consisted of Royal Society of Medicine, the British Society of Clinical and Academic Hypnosis and the British Society of Medical and Dental Hypnosis the article doesn't give a number of attendance.
you said:
And? I am not objecting to private practices in principle or otherwise. I am objecting to being objected to for earning less than I would privately to give people who couldn't afford hypnotherapy privately the chance to benefit from it.
on my website it says that I do give discounts to clients if they can not afford the full fee and I have given plenty of sessions at the cost to me for renting the room which means that I actually loose money if I have had to pay for travel and two hours of my time so profit is obviously not my main priority if you were referring to me.
I have also work with people who cant afford even the fee for a room.
you are right you are the only one who talked to the therapist so you know what they said after you informed them about the research being done by the NHS and the guidelines by NICE but you didn't say what the therapist said when you told them that. what was the outcome of the call did they still think it was unfair?
I'm not sure what you mean by the HIP so I'm not sure if they are a genius or not.
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Permalink Reply by Henxy on
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tom keane said:
Interesting; you said quite categorically that the caller wasn't on here!I dont know iof the therapist is on here or not if you know who they are so it would be easy for you to check and if they are you could let them know about the disscusion you started that way they could respopnd in theier own words. if they are not on here you could give them the web address. obviously its up to them if they want to respond.
tom keane said:
Ah, you mean that some doctors and other members of these groups attended! That's not quite the same as 'the medical profession', now is it?! And noteably, these drs are all interested in hypnosis. It's hardly a huge coup; a psychiatrist talking to his medical colleagues and gaining a captive audience and informing them of the advances in and advantages of hypnotherapy when the audience are already hypnotists!the medical profession consisted of Royal Society of Medicine, the British Society of Clinical and Academic Hypnosis and the British Society of Medical and Dental Hypnosis the article doesn't give a number of attendance.
I was replying to, not referring to you. If you have an issue with your conscience on this issue, it's not due to me. I'm actually not interested in what you do and don't do about discounting or doing free work; that's really off topic.
tom keane said:
If they had changed their opinion or replied in any way to suggest that my pointing those things out, I would most definitely have posted that here; but as they didn't, I didn't have anything to add here. We agreed to disagree; I told the caller when they suggested our paths might cross in the future that I hoped that they weren't going to tell me off again!you are right you are the only one who talked to the therapist so you know what they said after you informed them about the research being done by the NHS and the guidelines by NICE but you didn't say what the therapist said when you told them that. what was the outcome of the call did they still think it was unfair?
tom keane said:
A word of advice: before you start advocating or seeming impressed that some professor or other has done something, you might want to look them up, and find out a bit about their work and what they stand for. Otherwise, you could be singing the praises of a rapist or murderer without realising. Not that Spiegel is; but not knowing about the HIP shows you didn't know the basics about him.I'm not sure what you mean by the HIP so I'm not sure if they are a genius or not.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Ellner on -
Henxy, Tom, et al, future readers,
I believe that Dr Speigel was a rapist of sorts, but I am clear that he did not harm people with malice - he harmed them with a basic misunderstanding about hypnosis . Tens of millions people were, are, and will be told that they can not be hypnotized or are poor subjects based on Dr Herbert Spiegel's Hypnotic Induction Profile (HIP)
Henxy said:tom keane said:
Interesting; you said quite categorically that the caller wasn't on here!I dont know iof the therapist is on here or not if you know who they are so it would be easy for you to check and if they are you could let them know about the disscusion you started that way they could respopnd in theier own words. if they are not on here you could give them the web address. obviously its up to them if they want to respond.
tom keane said:
Ah, you mean that some doctors and other members of these groups attended! That's not quite the same as 'the medical profession', now is it?! And noteably, these drs are all interested in hypnosis. It's hardly a huge coup; a psychiatrist talking to his medical colleagues and gaining a captive audience and informing them of the advances in and advantages of hypnotherapy when the audience are already hypnotists!the medical profession consisted of Royal Society of Medicine, the British Society of Clinical and Academic Hypnosis and the British Society of Medical and Dental Hypnosis the article doesn't give a number of attendance.
I was replying to, not referring to you. If you have an issue with your conscience on this issue, it's not due to me. I'm actually not interested in what you do and don't do about discounting or doing free work; that's really off topic.
tom keane said:
If they had changed their opinion or replied in any way to suggest that my pointing those things out, I would most definitely have posted that here; but as they didn't, I didn't have anything to add here. We agreed to disagree; I told the caller when they suggested our paths might cross in the future that I hoped that they weren't going to tell me off again!you are right you are the only one who talked to the therapist so you know what they said after you informed them about the research being done by the NHS and the guidelines by NICE but you didn't say what the therapist said when you told them that. what was the outcome of the call did they still think it was unfair?
tom keane said:
A word of advice: before you start advocating or seeming impressed that some professor or other has done something, you might want to look them up, and find out a bit about their work and what they stand for. Otherwise, you could be singing the praises of a rapist or murderer without realising. Not that Spiegel is; but not knowing about the HIP shows you didn't know the basics about him.I'm not sure what you mean by the HIP so I'm not sure if they are a genius or not.
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Permalink Reply by Anne Morrison on -
Hi
I treat IBS patients privately and yes I do hope one day to make a profit, not just from patients who have IBS! I think the work done by Prof Worrell within the NHS and that the NHS provides treatment is truly fantastic and wish that the NHS would use hypnotherapy more in its interventions. The more people providing support the better as IBS can be so debilitating if people aren't helped to change how they relate to it and manage their symptoms in a different way.
As ever there are always going to be those who are afraid of competition and who want to protect their work. With so many different 'schools' of hypnosis and different membership bodies it can be difficult for the public to know who's reputable and who's not. I'm a member of the British Society of Clinical Hypnosis and the focus of our training with the LCCH was always treat the patient. Match how you work with what they require to help them most. If you provide good service and help people resolve their issues (what ever they may be) then you'll have clients.
Anne
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Permalink Reply by Anthony Edgington Sr on -
It takes all sorts of course, and my experience has been exactly opposite to yours. When I announced at a meeting of the Hypnosis society of Alberta that I was semi retiring in order to concentrate on clients suffering from Cancer in memory of my wife, and that my clinic would be free, I was inundated with good wishes and offers of help if I needed it... I have been fortunate to surround myself with people who care about others and that was one time it showed....One friend who charged $250.00 per sessions plus taxes, offered to have me observed her at work if it would help. this was a year ago, and still I have members recommending me to clients, and they feel it gives them an edge in that they have grateful clients.
If any of you who read this feel that EVERYBODY in the business should be altruistic, good luck, you live in a fairyland and I don't envy you but wish you well.....
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Permalink Reply by Henxy on
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Anthony Edgington Sr said:If any of you who read this feel that EVERYBODY in the business should be altruistic, good luck, you live in a fairyland and I don't envy you but wish you well.....
That's the point. Although governments try to make it a business, the NHS is NOT a commercial organisation. It's a wonderful organisation full of individuals who give far more than they're paid to, and do it for the benefit of the patient. If there's a want or a need to make a profit of any size, then that's the private sector. This thread isn't about telling people to give all their gifts for free; it's about someone's questioning of patients accessing IBS hypnotherapy free to them on the NHS.
If that's fairyland, then I feel sorry for your countrymen. Almost every person I've worked with in the NHS gives their time and skills free for several hours a week, as well as being paid less than (or charging less than) their private sector counterparts.
There are so many aspects of a person's life that can be improved by hypnotherapy that people like the caller who don't want to be part of the NHS, yet don't want the NHS to 'give hypnotherapy away' could do better for their business by focusing on one of them, rather than something that affects a person's (perceptions of their) health if they want to be rich on the back of it.
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