I`m very interested in hypnosis neurophysiological basis. Who has any information on that subject?

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Permalink Reply by Mark Tyrrell on June 18, 2009 at 8:00am

Hi Alex

Ernest Rossi's (who trained with Milton Erickson) "Psychobiology of Mind Body Healing" is a great place to start. He talks about the 'Ultradian Rhythms' that ebb and flow throughout the day (every 90 to 120 minutes) we naturally drift into a more trance like state of mind.

Joe Griffin PHD has used research to draw interesting parallels between hypnosis and the REM state. REM state or 'dream sleep' is also known as 'paradoxical sleep' as brainwaves patterns of a dreaming person (and blood pressure levels) are more similar to a waking person than to a person in slow wave sleep.

The natural REM state shares many correlates with hypnosis such as catalepsy, rapid eye movement (think swinging watch induction) activation of the sometimes spontaneous imaginative scenarios-dreams vs. day-dreams or guided dreams and the activation of the electrical spike in the brain known as the PGO spike which fires constantly whilst dreaming and can also be observed in hypnotized subjects or during times of shock such as during, say a car crash, in which we may spontaneously enter a kind of hypnotic dream-like state in which reality may seem to go into slow motion.

It's curious that when we are shocked into the REM state (either through an emergency or being, say tipped, back by a stage hypnotist) we become more suggestible as when someone "learns" to have a phobia or PTSD from a one off shocking event.

For a great introduction to the REM connection to hypnosis see Griffin's book (based on his PHD) "Dreaming Reality."

All the best

Mark

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Permalink Reply by Alex Prismotrov on June 18, 2009 at 8:09am

Thanks Mark, I`ll try your advices

Mark Tyrrell said:

Hi Alex

Ernest Rossi's (who trained with Milton Erickson) "Psychobiology of Mind Body Healing" is a great place to start. He talks about the 'Ultradian Rhythms' that ebb and flow throughout the day (every 90 to 120 minutes) we naturally drift into a more trance like state of mind.

Joe Griffin PHD has used research to draw interesting parallels between hypnosis and the REM state. REM state or 'dream sleep' is also known as 'paradoxical sleep' as brainwaves patterns of a dreaming person (and blood pressure levels) are more similar to a waking person than to a person in slow wave sleep.

The natural REM state shares many correlates with hypnosis such as catalepsy, rapid eye movement (think swinging watch induction) activation of the sometimes spontaneous imaginative scenarios-dreams vs. day-dreams or guided dreams and the activation of the electrical spike in the brain known as the PGO spike which fires constantly whilst dreaming and can also be observed in hypnotized subjects or during times of shock such as during, say a car crash, in which we may spontaneously enter a kind of hypnotic dream-like state in which reality may seem to go into slow motion.

It's curious that when we are shocked into the REM state (either through an emergency or being, say tipped, back by a stage hypnotist) we become more suggestible as when someone "learns" to have a phobia or PTSD from a one off shocking event.

For a great introduction to the REM connection to hypnosis see Griffin's book (based on his PHD) "Dreaming Reality."

All the best

Mark

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Neil on June 19, 2009 at 1:13am

Think about what you hope to achieve from this quest.

When you realise the driving force behind it, then you may ask another question.
Is this going to get me what I want?

Many sources of information are available.
Many thousands of people have read and understood.
How many still ask questions?

There are many good hypnotists.
It is a possibility that they what they do, even though the knowledge they learnt slows them down.
There may be an argument to support the line of questioning that leads to just doing.

Love and respect Neil.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Susan French on June 19, 2009 at 5:45am

What???

Neil,

Are you trying to say that a quest to understand the neurophysiology that accompanies hypnosis is pointless and of no value?

Susan

Neil said:

Think about what you hope to achieve from this quest.

When you realise the driving force behind it, then you may ask another question.
Is this going to get me what I want?

Many sources of information are available.
Many thousands of people have read and understood.
How many still ask questions?

There are many good hypnotists.
It is a possibility that they what they do, even though the knowledge they learnt slows them down.
There may be an argument to support the line of questioning that leads to just doing.

Love and respect Neil.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Alex Prismotrov on June 19, 2009 at 8:22am

Susan +1

Susan French said:

What???

Neil,

Are you trying to say that a quest to understand the neurophysiology that accompanies hypnosis is pointless and of no value?

Susan

Neil said:

Think about what you hope to achieve from this quest.

When you realise the driving force behind it, then you may ask another question.
Is this going to get me what I want?

Many sources of information are available.
Many thousands of people have read and understood.
How many still ask questions?

There are many good hypnotists.
It is a possibility that they what they do, even though the knowledge they learnt slows them down.
There may be an argument to support the line of questioning that leads to just doing.

Love and respect Neil.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by John Cleesattel on June 19, 2009 at 8:52am

I would have to say...for a hypnotist, it really doesn't matter at all what the neurophysical conditions are. This is akin to the necessity of a vehicle driver understanding the specifics of the operation of an internal combustion engine in order to be able to drive. Valuable for a mechanic, not for the driver.

Just my thoughts
John

Alex Prismotrov said:

Susan +1

Susan French said:

What???

Neil,

Are you trying to say that a quest to understand the neurophysiology that accompanies hypnosis is pointless and of no value?

Susan

Neil said:

Think about what you hope to achieve from this quest.

When you realise the driving force behind it, then you may ask another question.
Is this going to get me what I want?

Many sources of information are available.
Many thousands of people have read and understood.
How many still ask questions?

There are many good hypnotists.
It is a possibility that they what they do, even though the knowledge they learnt slows them down.
There may be an argument to support the line of questioning that leads to just doing.

Love and respect Neil.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by the grumpy hypnotist on June 19, 2009 at 9:37am

Is there any evidence that a hypnotist dabbling in subjects such as diet, nutrition or neurology leads to better results for the client? Maybe it is interesting and intellectually satisfying to the hypnotist who wants to play wanna-be counselor or nutritionist or physiologist... there's nothing wrong with that by itself, but does it actually help the client?

More importantly, could it possibly have the opposite detrimental effect, where the hypnotist at some level begins to think in terms of diagnosing or analyzing the client's problem, creating a story in their own head based on what they've read and speculation as to how it applies to client situation? To some extent this is unavoidable, but I think it is not something that necessarily should be seen as universally a good idea.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Alex Prismotrov on June 19, 2009 at 10:49am

I`m just interested in neurophysiology as well as in hypnosis. And i didn`t tell that hypnotist is not able to work without knowing the brain mechanisms of trance and hypnosis in general

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by John Cleesattel on June 19, 2009 at 10:53am

There's not a thing wrong with that :)

John

Alex Prismotrov said:

I`m just interested in neurophysiology as well as in hypnosis. And i didn`t tell that hypnotist is not able to work without knowing the brain mechanisms of trance and hypnosis in general

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Mark Tyrrell on June 19, 2009 at 2:59pm

I think that a curiosity about the brain when working with people's brains is a good thing as is a curiosity about psychology in general.

People are not just cognitive, or hypnotic or behavioural or economic or nutritional but all these aspects play their different roles in a person's life.

The more we learn about how all these spheres work the better able we are too help people. Having a wide skill base and in depth understandings of principles doesn't mean we have to work cumbersomely; desperately trying to get clients to "fit the theory" or to blind them with jargon, it means rather we can be truly humane with our clients because we’ll be helping them form a position of knowledge.

Depressed clients instinctively know that their sleep gives them little rest and is, actually, exhausting and it’s useful for them to know that depressed people dream three times as much (on average) as non-depressed people and this over-activation of the REM mechanism is what ultimately causes the very physical exhaustion of depression. Likewise explaining why depressed people over-dream and how they can you can help them stop over-dreaming offers practical hope to the client.

So I reckon that all worthwhile knowledge should prove itself to be practically applicable. For example understanding ultradian rhythms means we can be more attuned to when clients become naturally "trancy" and use that as a time of helping them learn new healthier patterns.

Mark

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Permalink Reply by Susan French on June 19, 2009 at 5:19pm

Actually, John, I find that understanding the way the brain works helps me to tailor suggestions and approaches. Not only that but understanding the physiology helps me a lot in general.

For instance, the way John Owens explained how the conscious mind is a function of the left hemisphere and that as we go into hypnosis, the brain transfers function to the right brain and seeing his graph helped me a lot.

If you recall, when you explained your three minds ideas, you kept reminding me that those ideas were just a model. Later I realized that I have more trouble understanding the model cancept than I do when I can see how the "machine" actually works (if that makes any sense).

Susan



John Cleesattel said:

I would have to say...for a hypnotist, it really doesn't matter at all what the neurophysical conditions are. This is akin to the necessity of a vehicle driver understanding the specifics of the operation of an internal combustion engine in order to be able to drive. Valuable for a mechanic, not for the driver.

Just my thoughts
John

Alex Prismotrov said:

Susan +1

Susan French said:

What???

Neil,

Are you trying to say that a quest to understand the neurophysiology that accompanies hypnosis is pointless and of no value?

Susan

Neil said:

Think about what you hope to achieve from this quest.

When you realise the driving force behind it, then you may ask another question.
Is this going to get me what I want?

Many sources of information are available.
Many thousands of people have read and understood.
How many still ask questions?

There are many good hypnotists.
It is a possibility that they what they do, even though the knowledge they learnt slows them down.
There may be an argument to support the line of questioning that leads to just doing.

Love and respect Neil.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Susan French on June 19, 2009 at 5:21pm

Me too, Alex, big-time. I'm just interested and have been for a long time.

Susan

Alex Prismotrov said:

I`m just interested in neurophysiology as well as in hypnosis. And i didn`t tell that hypnotist is not able to work without knowing the brain mechanisms of trance and hypnosis in general

• ▶ Reply

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