Is there anyone in control?

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Permalink Reply by Wendy Parker on April 7, 2009 at 3:38pm

Hi Tom,

thank you for your input. I did check out some info on "The dark night of the soul" on a couple of different websites.

I really appreciate you mentioning that, I have never heard of it. If that's what's going on, at least there will be an end to it, hopefully a positive one:-)

Thanks - Wendy

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Permalink Reply by Darren on April 7, 2009 at 4:58pm

Hi Wendy

Speaking as an Antitheist, I cannot tell you what to believe, but I can relate to what you are going through, as I was once a practicing christian. And, if it helps, I will relate a little about my feelings from my own experience in shedding my faith.

For starters, I come from a family of hardcore believers. Catholic, Mennonite, Evangelical...even Christian Science....compose the body of my immediate and extended family. As a young boy, I had the misfortune of watching my parents split in a violent alcohol and hate fueled divorce. After changing schools, I found myself friendless, with a severe facial tick, at a new school, in a new neighborhood.

In second grade, the school made us bow our heads and say the lords prayer every morning. Then there was a bible verse....then, just to confuse the crap out of us, we got to the actual education part of it.
One morning, in science class, the subject turned to Darwin and the study of fossils. Suddenly, a fire was lit, and some life questions felt as though they were about to be answered.
At recess, I made the mistake of trying to play basketball with some of the other boys. Being new to the school, I tried to talk to them about some of the things we had just learned in science. One of the boys, the leader of the group, turned to me with a snarl and said, “My granny says that anyone who believes in that stuff is going to burn in hell forever.” which got them all laughing derisively at me. It also caused me to hide my agnosticism for the next three decades...to the point where I really really tried to believe...almost succeeding at one point, only to have, what some would call, a “crisis” of faith....the suggestion being that one cannot be considered to be a good person unless one has faith.

As an adult, I can tell you that is an absolute LIE. As an adult, I have undertaken to free my own mind. There was once a time when the church had the authority to literally execute people for not proclaiming their faith. Since this is no longer the case (at least not in North America) the church has only two ways to keep it’s sheep in line; fear of immorality and fear of death.

To address the first method, I will ask you two questions. The first question has never been convincingly answered by anyone as far as I know....The question is; Is there any moral, ethical, altruistic action which can be performed by a person of faith, which cannot be performed by a non believer?

The second one is an easy one to answer; Can you think of an act of evil that can be done in the name of a person’s god, that could not be done for any other reason. To be honest, I can think of an awful lot of evil things that people do to satisfy their god, that they would never even consider doing for profit or love (Jonestown and 9/11 come to mind, but the list is virtually endless. Suicide bombers don’t work for a profit...they work for a “prophet.”)

Most people who claim to be religious display a kind of Cognitive Dissonance. This is understandable, since modern science has basically debunked all of the claims of ‘creation via religious explanation.’ Throughout the ages, the churches have fought tooth and nail to stifle science, sometimes setting back advancements by killing free thinkers. This is immoral...the free exchange of ideas is the only real hope for humankind. Ironically, the hobbling of science is of great interest to the very same people who would use the most technologically advanced weapons to satisfy their lust for apocalypse.

When I finally had my “crisis of faith”...my ‘dark night of the soul’, unlike most people I was actually overcome with joy...hardly a crisis, it was an epiphany...an epiphany because I finally came to terms with certain truths about myself;

• I am responsible for my own misdeeds...I cannot honestly say ‘the Devil made me do it’
• I am responsible for my own moral actions...I can feel good about helping others for it’s own sake, not to score “brownie points” with some god.
• I will NEVER subject myself to the moral judgement of others...I am not going to hell no matter what they believe.
.....I am the one in control.

In his amazing and controversial book ‘god is not Great’ Christopher Hitchens gives the following exceptionally positive and life affirming explanation of some of the awesome things free thinking has going for it.

‘I have since met such people in hundreds of places, and in dozens of different countries.
Many of them never believed, and many of them abandoned faith
after a difficult struggle. Some of them had blinding moments of unconviction
that were every bit as instantaneous, though perhaps less
epileptic and apocalyptic (and later more rationally and more morally
justified) than Saul of Tarsus on the Damascene road. And here is
the point, about myself and my co-thinkers. Our belief is not a belief.

Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science
and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient
factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages
reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free
inquiry, open-mindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake....
.....We are not immune to the lure of wonder and mystery
and awe: we have music and art and literature, and find that the serious
ethical dilemmas are better handled by Shakespeare and Tolstoy
and Schiller and Dostoyevsky and George Eliot than in the mythical
morality tales of the holy books. Literature, not scripture, sustains the
mind and--since there is no other metaphor--also the soul. We do
not believe in heaven or hell, yet no statistic will ever find that without
these blandishments and threats we commit more crimes of greed
or violence than the faithful. (In fact, if a proper statistical inquiry
could ever be made, I am sure the evidence would be the other way.)
We are reconciled to living only once, except through our children,
for whom we are perfectly happy to notice that we must make way.

.......Those of us who had sought a rational alternative to religion had
reached a terminus that was comparably dogmatic. What else was to
be expected of something that was produced by the close cousins of
chimpanzees? Infallibility? Thus, dear reader, if you have come this
far and found your own faith undermined–as I hope–I am willing to say
to some extent that I know what you are going through. There are days
when I miss my old convictions as if they were an amputated limb.
But in general....I feel better, and no less radical, and you will feel better
too, I guarantee, once you leave hold of the doctrinaire and allow your
chainless mind to do it’s own thinking.’

Here is a cool link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Sq-aMXHeCg&feature=related

i sincerely hope you find your own inner peace, with or without a personal god...
Have a GREAT day
amen LOL

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Permalink Reply by Wendy Parker on April 7, 2009 at 5:54pm

Well Darren, what a powerful person you are.
I am very happy for you that you have such certainty of your beliefs and I thank you so much for sharing.
I am always questioning and re-evaluating and I will see what comes out of this current quandry:-)
I believe my biggest battle is always with myself.

Thank you Darren - Wendy

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Permalink Reply by John Cleesattel on April 7, 2009 at 6:09pm

Wendy,
At the end of the day.. what difference does it make? The outcomes aren't changed either way. If it helps to have something divine to blame things on, or to attribute good things too, then use it. You won't know what is real until the ride is over anyway. So believe what will make you feel the best while you are here.

John

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Permalink Reply by Karen Lockman on April 7, 2009 at 6:34pm

Hi Wendy:
I can relate to what you're going through. I did many years ago; also came from a highly fundamentalist christian family who still are. What really helped me was reading (or listening to the audio versions is even better) "Conversations with God" by Neale Donald Walsch. He makes soooooo much sense, and gets into just the meaning of life and personal spirituality (love based) instead of religion (fear based). His subsequent book" What God Wants" really opens your eyes. Another name for God is Life. And what does God want from you? Well, if he wanted something then he/she/it/source/energy/universal-consciousness wouldn't have everything he/she wanted, so it would not be perfect. If he/she NEEDED anything from you, then it would not have everything that it needed, therefore it would not be all knowing, all having, all loving, etc. Soooo, what does God want? Nothing. God is really just the experience of life itself, so you can grow and evolve in love and eventually return to source energy. Basically he helps you to understand that God is nothing more than a concept, and we are the experience to knowingness of the concept. Does that make sense? Try the audio books. They really get you thinking and giving up all the old dogmas and just loving yourself for who and what you are in the now-- having the experience of life; you'll like them. Karen

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Permalink Reply by Michael Ellner on April 7, 2009 at 7:21pm

You may be going through dark nights or perhpas you are simply continuing your hero's journey of self-discovery. Just remember that the metaphor is not the experience - it is a model --

Drawing on my own experience -- I found that as I was losing my religon -- I was rediscovering my spirituality and that was a good thing (for me)... In terms of trusting ourselves -- I think thinking is over-rated -- We are engineered to feel what is right.

=^..^=

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Permalink Reply by Joe K Fobes on April 7, 2009 at 7:35pm

"The question is; Is there any moral, ethical, altruistic action which can be performed by a person of faith, which cannot be performed by a non believer?"

I couldn't pass that one up...... If it is true that there is a creator who created you and keeps you alive at every moment, is there a more unethical depraved thing then to deny his presence and to spit in his face using the life and mind that he gave you?!

I'm not saying here that believers are ethical based on a objective viewpoint, it's just that if you do believe, you then see that one who decides not to believe as doing something very very unethical. So the above question to one who still believes is most certainly not a reason to abandon their faith, if anything it is all the more reason to hold onto it even stronger.

Joe

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Permalink Reply by Pattie Freeman CH.t, MST on April 7, 2009 at 7:43pm

Hi Wendy...

Spiritual enlighteniment they say usually comes to them at the last of your lives..as in regression. I have been told that's when many look for spiritual awakenmemt and also look more into the metaphysical world...Just a thought for you..

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Permalink Reply by Wendy Parker on April 7, 2009 at 8:00pm

Michael,

I actually thought I was saying more about how powerful the mind is, and that would be the discussion. I am not religous, rather, I have obviously been "showing my knickers."
This was not supposed to be about "me" but about how our own minds will see what they want to see to support our beliefs, so how can our minds be trusted.

I believe you are right, as far as I am concerned, I am a "thinker"
In the medical field you have to find some kind of "reason why" terrible things happen to such wonderful people, to such innocent, wonderful, people. I know, that in your AIDS work, you will understand that.

I have wondered, who am I without this pain that I have brought into my life, and how that has changed me, how I have HAD to change to be able to do the things/work that I do. Having to care more about someone elses suffering, my own feelings don't count and can't be allowed because there is a job that needs to be done and there is no room for me to "feel."

And there, a light goes off:-) Where have I been before where my feelings were not allowed and I had to act like I had no feelings!

Where did I know what was going on and yet everything told me that my belief was wrong, everyone acted like everything was fine, when I felt is wasn't.

It is always a battle with the self after all.

The fact is, I have "experienced" certain things that have allowed me to see that there is some loving energy out there that is active in our lives, that intervenes in amazing ways.

There are certain truths that I cannot deny, it is everything else that I question. I will understand everything when I die in this life, I am sure, but I have so many questions that I want answered in this life, and my "belief" is not enough anymore.

Thank you for your input Michael. I am uncomfortable that this has become so much about me rather than the minds we all have.

There are so many amazing people on the website, who have such great insight. I am truly blessed:-)

Thank you - Wendy

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Permalink Reply by Steve Andrade on April 7, 2009 at 8:06pm

Hi Wendy,

“Is there anyone in control?”
Yes. (and I’ll get back to that).

If we are not our thoughts, then it’s ok to think anything.
As observers of our thoughts we can establish any perspective if we so choose.

“I have always believed there was a God/Universal intelligence/Love…”

Always?

The word "always" is a very interesting word in this context. If I had to guess, "always" would appear as someone else’s idea that was passed on to a young mind still in the hypnosis-all-the-time-state, 0 to 8 years of age. Can this be the time for your own ideas to surface, and what a wonderful thing that is.

“This has always provided me with a certain comfort…”
That almost appears as if it were the only source of comfort, (I’ll come back to this).

“I've never really believed the addage "God doesn't give you more than you can cope with."

I personally believe that nothing is given, I believe we either attract into or we block goodness or the well being that constantly flows always to us.

“Some people kill themselves over things that have been "sent" their way.”

The world is not perfect, or is it, are we assigning expectations in order to arrive at a specific outcome?

"Is there anyone in control?"

I think we are all part of that control. What happens here on earth is a compilation of all that is in it. What happens out in the universe is a compilation of all that is in it. Change is a constant. Everything is constantly moving.

Birth and death are parts of life and change. "When and how," is influenced by nature and the effects of nature, or the natural order of things. We are or a part of that nature.

We are part of cycles, some life learns better survival, some create more security. To explain it all is probably not possible, nor is it worth trying to figure it out.

How do we shape that control that all of us are a part of?
I know of one way, “Gratitude.”

Gratitude is a magic all in itself. I even think the concept of God or maybe just the name or a name, was created in order to direct gratitude toward something. That is one of my personal beliefs that I think about each night I go into the state of gratitiude, I have learned to just be able to go into the state, but there was I time I was looking for something to direct it to.

Being grateful removes negativity just by its nature. And it attracts the good that could get blocked without it. They even create sayings about it like, “count your blessings.”

“God/Universal intelligence/Love…”
Who says you have to change believing in God/Universal intelligence/Love?

So let’s mix up a little metaphysical, spiritual salad…..let’s start with Gratitude, add a little acceptance of what already is……better add a little more acceptance, not too much, just the right amount….that’s right. Let’s combine a little of that gratitude with some compassion first then throw it into the mix.

Stir in a lot of love and kindness and can you now see who’s in control?

Comfort comes in many forms, the good thing is, it is everywhere.

One of your many friends,
Steve

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Permalink Reply by Rick Collingwood on April 7, 2009 at 9:34pm

Life would be boring without ups and downs and challenges. I don't think we have some supreme being or beings looking over us, or judging our every thought and action, but I do think there is some kind of devine intelligence that keeps things flowing along. One thing is for certain (See below)

"In spite of the search for this thing called spiritualism, even the most blessed, the Holy men, the Lamas, and the Sages, they too feel pain at times. They feel anxiety, they feel fear, and they also feel the emotional pain from the lack of or separation from love. Nobody Beats The Rap!"

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Permalink Reply by Fable Goodman on April 8, 2009 at 1:34am

As I was reading and enjoying this thread, I was sent this link to a very short video story, by my friend Michael.

http://www.michaeljreece.co.uk/films_fisher.htm

It seemed to connect so what I had just been reading, and so I thought others reading this thread might appreciate it too. (it is just over three minutes of viewing time)

Love and hugs,


Fable

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