Need some suggestions on metaphors to use

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Doreen Cohanim C.Ht on June 2, 2009 at 4:05pm

Antonio, It's all nice, but why isn't she happy in her relationship?
What is her history of her past relationships?
Why does she feel the way she feels?
How long is she in this marriage?
Do they have children?

You can work with her self esteem. loving herself, listening to her feelings, knowing what she want.

You said, that she always knew. that she wanted to leave her husband?
Why didn't she?
How long does she feel this way?
Did she ever discuss her feeling with her husband, or it is going to be a surprise bomb for the husband?
Does she have a lover outside her marriage?
Is she feeling guilty?
Is her marriage in danger, because of abuse?
Is she a selfish person?
Is he verbally or physically abusive?

What I am saying is, relationship is not an acting or a movie screen, It's real, and hypnotherapy should be used professionally...
It seems to me, that you are going to promote more confusion then delivering the solution my friend, work on her self esteem, I am sure she had good time with her husband in one point, other wise, why did she marry him?

She needs Family Marriage Therapist to work on those issues, and you can help her with loving herself, trusting herself, learning who she is, what makes her happy, improving her communication between her and her husband, so she can make better choices in life, if you do what you do, as you pointed out, you are taking things into your hands and changing the script, according to what you think it is best for her, and that is not going to be the best decision for her.

Just me personal understanding, you do what is best for you to do...
Respectfully, Doreen Coahnim C.Ht

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Permalink Reply by Antonio on June 2, 2009 at 8:05pm

Ok, I'll respond in the best way that I know.

1) Shes not happy and hasn't been happy for some time. Thats reason enough.

2) About her past relationships, its in the past. I want to work on the "issues" at hand that she said she wants help with - being more trusting of people and "I have this habit that i have never really been single for more then a month at a time."

3) She has no problem with self-esteem.

4) "It seems to me, that you are going to promote more confusion then delivering the solution my friend, work on her self esteem, I am sure she had good time with her husband in one point, other wise, why did she marry him?"

Promoting more confusion? I had already mentioned what she wanted help with, so I am going to use 2 therapuetic metaphors to accomplish this. Besides she DOES not want to be with him any more. Wouldn't you agree that its un-ethical to do something against a clients wishes?

5) She didn't leave her husband because she WAS having a hard time making decisions. We took care of that by setting up two ideomotor signals - one for yes and one for no.

6) "improving her communication between her and her husband, so she can make better choices in life, if you do what you do, as you pointed out, you are taking things into your hands and changing the script, according to what you think it is best for her, and that is not going to be the best decision for her."

She has already made her mind up that she does not want to be with him. That was taken care of. Now she wants to work on the issues at hand. By using a metaphor her unconscious will naturally understand the messages. After all she has asked for these specific changes, and I wouldn't feel right going against her wishes.

1) How is improving her communication between her and her husband going to help her make better decisions in life? If she had made better decisions up to this point, maybe she wouldn't have married him.

Doreen Cohanim C.Ht said:

Antonio, It's all nice, but why isn't she happy in her relationship?
What is her history of her past relationships?
Why does she feel the way she feels?
How long is she in this marriage?
Do they have children?

You can work with her self esteem. loving herself, listening to her feelings, knowing what she want.

You said, that she always knew. that she wanted to leave her husband?
Why didn't she?
How long does she feel this way?
Did she ever discuss her feeling with her husband, or it is going to be a surprise bomb for the husband?
Does she have a lover outside her marriage?
Is she feeling guilty?
Is her marriage in danger, because of abuse?
Is she a selfish person?
Is he verbally or physically abusive?

What I am saying is, relationship is not an acting or a movie screen, It's real, and hypnotherapy should be used professionally...
It seems to me, that you are going to promote more confusion then delivering the solution my friend, work on her self esteem, I am sure she had good time with her husband in one point, other wise, why did she marry him?

She needs Family Marriage Therapist to work on those issues, and you can help her with loving herself, trusting herself, learning who she is, what makes her happy, improving her communication between her and her husband, so she can make better choices in life, if you do what you do, as you pointed out, you are taking things into your hands and changing the script, according to what you think it is best for her, and that is not going to be the best decision for her.

Just me personal understanding, you do what is best for you to do...
Respectfully, Doreen Coahnim C.Ht

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Permalink Reply by Doreen Cohanim C.Ht on June 3, 2009 at 2:11am

Antonio, perhaps you should read what you posted... apparently her marriage is not in the past or behind her, she is still married to him.

Also if she was able to make her own decision, she wouldn't be seeing you, but she is, and it seems, that you are making the decision for her, by hypnotizing her to do so...

Yes, promoting more confusion... I understand what she said she said she wanted, since you did mention that in your post.

And, you are going to use the 2 therapeutic metaphors to accomplish her desire... M I right so far?

You said, beside, she DOES not want to be with him any more… Great, then why is she still with him? I mean, if that is what she want, wouldn't you agree that she would have left him without your help?

Well, in response to "Wouldn't you agree that it’s un-ethical to do something against client’s wishes?"

Antonio, this is not about selling merchandise, when in that case, the costumer is always right, this is your client wanting to end her marriage, with your help.

I wander, who gave her that idea, that hypnosis can help her, make that decision to end her marriage?

Isn’t marriage involves two people, communication between two partners, two side of story’s?

I also, understand, that this is what she tells you she want, but she did not ended her marriage yet, and If she have a great self esteem, then I believe, she would not have come to you for help, would she? Unless, she is looking for an easy way out.... someone else to make that decision for her, like hypnotic suggestions… wow... very impressive…

Do you honestly believe, that instead of working on her personal issues, it is ethical to make her end her marriage based on your story/metaphor...

If that is what you believe, I wish you the best of luck.... Since, in every relationship, their are two people involved, and it take two to tango, I mean, two to communicate, so they can decide to end it or to save their marriage.

And, this is strictly my opinion, do you really think, what you are doing is going to make her happy? By making a script that she may regret it later, and perhaps, she may even come after you with a nice law suit... again, this is only based on my understanding and my personal opinion; and I strongly believe that you are offering very poor solution and it does not sound ethical to me, based on the best of my knowledge... This is really a License Marriage Therapist expertise, not a hypnotist or hypnotherapies… very important to remember who we are…...

Respectfully, Doreen Cohanim C.Ht

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Permalink Reply by Antonio on June 3, 2009 at 3:45am

She always wanted to leave him, but could not make up her mind when to do it. This is why I helped her to improve her decision making ability.

"Also if she was able to make her own decision, she wouldn't be seeing you, but she is, and it seems, that you are making the decision for her, by hypnotizing her to do so..."

Doreen you realize that we as hypnotists can make anyone do anything that they don't want to do, right?

"You said, beside, she DOES not want to be with him any more… Great, then why is she still with him? I mean, if that is what she want, wouldn't you agree that she would have left him without your help?"


No I wouldn't agree at all. First off I am not helping her to leave her marriage. What if there was some girl who is in a very abusive relationship, getting beat, and is in fear for her life if she tried to leave this person? This person may not want to be with this person anymore, but is not sure what to do. So no I don't agree.

"Well, in response to "Wouldn't you agree that it’s un-ethical to do something against client’s wishes?"

Antonio, this is not about selling merchandise, when in that case, the costumer is always right, this is your client wanting to end her marriage, with your help. I wander, who gave her that idea, that hypnosis can help her, make that decision to end her marriage?"

Once again, you have not paid attention to what I have said. She had ALREADY made the decision to end her marriage. She was having a hard time actually deciding how soon she wanted to end her marriage. In part she was kind of scared of what would happen after she leaves him, etc. This was taken care of with a couple of hypnotic interventions (anchoring, future pacing, dreams, etc).

Isn’t marriage involves two people, communication between two partners, two side of story’s?

Yes, but what if the other person is unwilling to communicate? No amount of marriage counseling will work if both parties won't communicate.


"And, you are going to use the 2 therapeutic metaphors to accomplish her desire... M I right so far?"

and

"Do you honestly believe, that instead of working on her personal issues, it is ethical to make her end her marriage based on your story/metaphor"

Do you know what the two therapeutic metaphors are exactly for? Obviously not, as it has NOTHING to do with her marriage. The metaphors are for the following issues "jumping into a relationship to fast after her current relationship" and "trust issues". It has nothing to do with me helping to end her marriage.


"I also, understand, that this is what she tells you she want, but she did not ended her marriage yet, and If she have a great self esteem, then I believe, she would not have come to you for help, would she? Unless, she is looking for an easy way out.... someone else to make that decision for her, like hypnotic suggestions… wow... very impressive…"

1) The reason she got into this current relationship is because she HAD low self-esteem. Around six months ago she realized her "self-worth" and wants to move on.

2) You fail to realize that I am not making any kind of decision for her. I helped her to make better decisions by making use of ideomotor signals. So she can ask herself "Is it a good decision to X" and if her thumb on her right hand moves its a yes, and if her ring finger on her right hand moves its a no. So please tell me how I made a decision for her?


"And, this is strictly my opinion, do you really think, what you are doing is going to make her happy? By making a script that she may regret it later, and perhaps, she may even come after you with a nice law suit... again, this is only based on my understanding and my personal opinion; and I strongly believe that you are offering very poor solution and it does not sound ethical to me, based on the best of my knowledge... This is really a License Marriage Therapist expertise, not a hypnotist or hypnotherapies… very important to remember who we are…..."

Yes I do feel that this is going to allow her to feel happy. How will she regret being able to come up with positive changes in her dreams, being able to trust people, and not rushing into relationships to fast? There is no need for a marriage therapist, as this script has NOTHING to do with marriage.

Care to give me more more insights?

Doreen Cohanim C.Ht said:

Antonio, perhaps you should read what you posted... apparently her marriage is not in the past or behind her, she is still married to him.
Also if she was able to make her own decision, she wouldn't be seeing you, but she is, and it seems, that you are making the decision for her, by hypnotizing her to do so... Yes, promoting more confusion... I understand what she said she said she wanted, since you did mention that in your post.
And, you are going to use the 2 therapeutic metaphors to accomplish her desire... M I right so far?

You said, beside, she DOES not want to be with him any more… Great, then why is she still with him? I mean, if that is what she want, wouldn't you agree that she would have left him without your help?

Well, in response to "Wouldn't you agree that it’s un-ethical to do something against client’s wishes?"

Antonio, this is not about selling merchandise, when in that case, the costumer is always right, this is your client wanting to end her marriage, with your help.

I wander, who gave her that idea, that hypnosis can help her, make that decision to end her marriage?

Isn’t marriage involves two people, communication between two partners, two side of story’s?

I also, understand, that this is what she tells you she want, but she did not ended her marriage yet, and If she have a great self esteem, then I believe, she would not have come to you for help, would she? Unless, she is looking for an easy way out.... someone else to make that decision for her, like hypnotic suggestions… wow... very impressive…

Do you honestly believe, that instead of working on her personal issues, it is ethical to make her end her marriage based on your story/metaphor...

If that is what you believe, I wish you the best of luck.... Since, in every relationship, their are two people involved, and it take two to tango, I mean, two to communicate, so they can decide to end it or to save their marriage.

And, this is strictly my opinion, do you really think, what you are doing is going to make her happy? By making a script that she may regret it later, and perhaps, she may even come after you with a nice law suit... again, this is only based on my understanding and my personal opinion; and I strongly believe that you are offering very poor solution and it does not sound ethical to me, based on the best of my knowledge... This is really a License Marriage Therapist expertise, not a hypnotist or hypnotherapies… very important to remember who we are…...

Respectfully, Doreen Cohanim C.Ht

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Permalink Reply by Doreen Cohanim C.Ht on June 3, 2009 at 9:51pm

Wildcard, Thanks for sharing...as long as you did the right thing helping her to make the right decision, instead of changing her script, sound legitimate to me...

Thanks Doreen Cohanim C.Ht

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Permalink Reply by Doreen Cohanim C.Ht on June 3, 2009 at 9:57pm

Antonio, In regards to your question
Care to give me more more insights?
No Comment...
All the best... Doreen

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Permalink Reply by Steve Andrade on June 4, 2009 at 4:34am

Antonio,

There is a reason there are Licensed Marriage Family therapists and laws against hypnotherapist practicing outside of scope.

Saying that there is no need for a Licensed Marriage family therapist sends up red flags for me from the get go.

I have to agree more with what Wildcard says in his reply.

My instincts tell me that she appears to be a person who always takes the easy way out and hasn’t learned how to deal with consequences or doesn’t want to deal with consequences and those consequence won’t disappear going in the direction I see that you are helping her with.

I could be totally wrong or only slightly off base, but according to the “family systems” philosophy, when someone changes, it not only changes them, but all those around them, family, friends, coworkers, etc….and yes, it can get worse before it gets better, and if she is not ready for that….bad gets worse.

Helping her get out of her marriage is getting her to see a Licensed marriage family therapist and I’m sure they can guide her to shelters for battered women or the proper procedures, I don’t know what those are, I am not LMFT.

The way I can see how a hypnotherapist can help her is to work on how she feels about herself. The trust issue is a major endeavor, according to Eric Erickson, trust issues are formed between the ages of 0 to one year old.

Learning to trust involves unlearning and relearning how to see people, read people, and trust in herself. That is where the decision making process comes from, from a trust in accepting what is real for her, in accepting there are consequences that everyone has to deal with and it is ok, people learn how to do this, people survive…..it may be all about fear, and the more we try to avoid, and that is exactly what she is doing, the bigger a fear gets.

I think the best thing for her is for you to go slower, not try to fix everything all at one time. Remember, it’s not the words she tells you, it’s the underlying message.

Listen to Doreen, to Wildcard, call a LMFT, ask them. It’s not about us, how great we are, it’s what’s best for your client. Giving someone the easy way out is never the best for anyone….it’s so wrong that even she can’t do it, she wants someone else to do it for her.

Leave marriage issues to the LMFT and stay within scope, vocational or avocational self help.

Just because her thumb or finger goes up.......and that is coming from her unconscious mind, we hope, doesn’t mean that is what is best for her. What if all her programming is all screwed up to where she learned to keep the pain coming, that abuse means love, that no matter what kind of attention it is, that means you are loved….her unconscious will seek to continue asking for whatever it takes to continue on the same path. Why do you think people who are in abusive relationships continue to seek out that same type of mate, time after time?

Metaphors can be hit and miss, just because we think we can understand them, they are not always taken the same way by the client, I would go with the positive suggestions that you elicit from how she sees her solutions and feed those suggestions back to her, using your wisdom and knowledge of therapy, and having the suggestions using her own wording, especially how ever she speaks, visually, auditory, etc.....and if you don't know if she takes suggestions literally or inferred, use a combination of both, see with ones work better.

If you do the job that the hypnotherapist is trained for, she will find her own way, and you can’t be sued.

My two cents worth.

Respectfully,
Steve

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Permalink Reply by Susan French on June 4, 2009 at 6:02am

Hi Antonio,

See how irritating it is to have people bypass your original question entirely and spin off into a different direction...lol?

I agree with your response. She's unhappy. She's been unhappy for a long time. She's made the decision and you got confirmation via ideomotor signals. You're going with what she asked for. If she was fat you wouldn't question her about why she wanted to lose weight and if she couldn't sleep you wouldn't question her about how much sleep she thinks she needs.

Your approach is very client-centered in my view and besides, she didn't ask for help to make her decision particularly. She asked for your help in helping her to go through it wisely and productively.

I really like your approach. I think the movie back to the future is brilliant. Is it your idea or did you learn it from someone? In any case, I really like it. It's confusional enough to really allow the client to create a strong future pace.

As for help with your metaphors: if you can tell us what you are trying to accomplish specifically it will be easier to come up with metaphor ideas. The words "relationship" and "trust" are too vague, I think.

I.e., is the metaphor supposed to help her transition well as she disconnects from him? Is it about letting go (from her perspective)? Is it about living comfortably as a single person?

Same thing on trust.

Susan

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Permalink Reply by Susan French on June 4, 2009 at 7:43am

Conrad,

I have to back up and say that I jumped to a conclusion. Of course the basic intake and discovery process has to be thorough, I agree. My experience with people is that by the time they come to that painful conclusion, they're usually right but perhaps this case could use some additional questioning, just to be sure.

As far as your alcoholic guy is concerned, I would suggest that you also consider that some people have a physiological predisposition to become alcoholic and any of the other addictive behaviors. There is some considerable research that suggests that people who are addiction prone are lacking in sufficient serotonin production/ uptake as well as some other neurochemical or even brain function dysfunctions. There isn't always a reason though often there is. Molestation is a BIG one, especially when the client has come from an alcoholic family. God. The mind boggles sometimes.

I've heard people in meetings share that they came from wonderful homes and had no major trauma but that they started drinking alcoholically from their first drink. I have some dysfunction in my background but not a lot. I started drinking alcoholically from my first drink. There are many of us who have serious insomnia issues or serious depression issues also. Psych meds are accepted now by AA as being necessary for some people to stay sober. They learned that from experience. It is suspected that heroin addicts who can't get clean have dopamine dysfunctions.

It a more diverse problem than most people understand.

Just some thoughts on the issues.

Susan

Conrad Cook said:

Susan wrote:

See how irritating it is to have people bypass your original question entirely and spin off into a different direction...lol? I agree with your response. She's unhappy. She's been unhappy for a long time. She's made the decision and you got confirmation via ideomotor signals.

If you think she made a poor choice in getting married, what makes you think she's making a better choice in leaving? The only thing we really know about this woman is that she's unhappy with the choices she's made: doesn't it then make sense to take particular care and precaution around the choice she's currently making? Especially when it involves leaving her family.

You're going with what she asked for. If she was fat you wouldn't question her about why she wanted to lose weight and if she couldn't sleep you wouldn't question her about how much sleep she thinks she needs.

I would! -- It's a basic screening question. If someone wants to lose weight because her husband is nagging her, that's a dealbreaker. And if someone tells me they're not getting enough sleep, the proper response is, "under what circumstances would you be convinced you were sleeping enough?"

Absolutely. Reach consensus on what success means. If you don't, real collaboration is not possible.

Usually, exploring the intentions and success criteria around and behind a decision they're making or a goal they have is a productive and benefitial process for clients. For anyone, really.

Story:

I hypnotized a guy into quitting drinking a little while ago: he poured all his booze down the drain. All I did was to feed his own process for motivating himself to drink back to him, with all the effects on his overall life put in. So now when he went through the "time to drink" process, he was confronted with what he was actually doing to himself, in his own judgement.

But it didn't stick. He started drinking again within a few months. So I asked him what it would be like to live the life he wanted, and he hasn't been able to answer that.

Now, I had limited contact with him, or I would have done more thorough work. But that's what happens when you don't think these things through. There's a reason he drinks, and I didn't knock it out. And when he quit drinking, he looked around and saw something weird and alien to him, didn't know how to deal with it, and went back to what was familiar.

The basic assumption hypnotherapy requires is that there's a thought process at the root of the problem. If there's not, you have no business doing hypnosis. Whether they're motivating themselves to drink or staying in a relationship with someone who's no good for them, you need to address that thought process, or you haven't addressed the problem.

And to address the thought process, you need to understand it. It's part of them. If you don't respect the part of them that's causing the problem, you're failing to respect the part of the client that nees to change.


Conrad.

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Permalink Reply by Donna Carter on June 4, 2009 at 8:18am

I believe....
Her self-esteem - is lacking (from the scenario you write).
If she had good self-esteem...she wouldn't be worried about all this other stuff.
She would KNOW she would be okay inside or outside her relationship.
She would KNOW she would be okay and making good decisions when she is dating again.
It wouldn't be a question of "can I do it" or "will I make the wrong
choice"... self-esteem has a way of strengthening many areas of our
life and smoothes out rough patches.

Thanks for bringing your experiences here to discuss, we all benefit.
~D.


Antonio said:

3) She has no problem with self-esteem.

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Permalink Reply by Bonnie Robinson on June 4, 2009 at 8:22am

I just want to say I'm enjoying this conversation so far. I read one person's and say..that makes sense then read the next and think ..hmmm so does that. I am wondering if the people responding, their own personal marriage experiences or feelings regarding marriage might be coming in to play here. Not 'accusing" but just merely curious. For instance if Antonio, Wildcard, Susan are single/divorced/believe marriage should be "as long as our love lasts" and if Steve, Conrad and Doreen are married/single but believe in once married always married.

I'll put straight up that I've been married 25 years but do believe in the "as long as our love lasts" and I was married shortly before this marriage, 1 year, when I was 19. So maybe this is why I am doing the, hmm that makes sense but so does that.

Huggles

Bonnie

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Permalink Reply by Bonnie Robinson on June 4, 2009 at 8:24am

Oh and Antonio I love your ideas so far. You definitely have a very creative mind, anyway you can send part of that creativity to me (grin). I use metaphors every day in my non-professional life, my family teases me about it, but do you think when I sit down to try to do something like this to work with clients I can, no way. So big kudo's to you for being able to.

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