NLP Training and...

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Kevin Cole-NLPTrainingQuest.com on September 24, 2009 at 12:20am

If you call the Society of NLP-Richard Bandler, and it's the same guy I'm thinking... You will get an *interesting* response from John La Valle, the president of The Society of NLP and partner with Richard Bandler. Tell John, Kevin Cole requested you call... He'll get a kick out of it...

He probably won't say anything *bad* about him but I can virtually guarantee he won't say anything good.

His number is 1-973-770-3600

That being said, the guy may be telling the truth as far as studying with all of them. As far as being respected and approved by them, that's a whole other story.


All the best,

Kevin

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Permalink Reply by Doreen Cohanim C.Ht on September 24, 2009 at 7:23pm

Thanks Kevin,

I may call or I may not call, but I am glad I didn't fall for it.
PS: I have removed myself from his meetup and didn't respong his email asking me again if I am ready to pay the fee and have a great training, I am tempted to, but whats the point, right?

Thank you all :)

Respectfully, Doreen Cohanim C.Ht

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Permalink Reply by Anne Marie Courtney on September 25, 2009 at 4:04am

Hi Doreen, It seems like this whole thing is eating you up and I think you really know deep down what to do about this issue yourself. You mention words like 'credibility' which I think in this case equates with honesty. It is clear that you are an honest and ethical person, turning up to help this person register the applicants and continueing to do so even after discovering that they got this special deal. It is a pity that the course provider who delivers a good course has to resort to these tactics. I trained in NLP in Ireland and with a very well respected institution who are certified by Richard Bandler, one of the originators of NLP who also co-signed my certificate. I am proud to tell people about who I trained with and I know that their good reputation and pedigree adds to my credibility as a practitioner. I am sure that you will find a more ethical trainer if you chose to. In the meantime apply the NLP training you have learned to stop beating yourself up over this issue. No need to carry this burden around any longer.
Stay well, Anne Marie Courtney

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Permalink Reply by Jonathan Altfeld on September 25, 2009 at 7:42am

Wow, do I ever have a lot of responses to this thread. I'll begin with replying to Susan French's comment that she doesn't see much difference between live training and training on DVD. As my experience (and as I'd hope my students' experience) is SO vastly different from her perspective, I would respectfully LOVE to know who she attended courses with. Not so I can belittle anyone. I just want to know who to classify more as a presenter, than a real trainer.

Live training should be vastly different than DVDs. But then I am drawing an enormous distinction in my own mind between presenting, and training, and I really don't hear that distinction being made by a lot of people. Yet, if you aren't making that distinction, you could very well be cheating yourself out of better distinctions others already know about (or, swallowing the WRONG Kool-Aid, so to speak).

If you watch a presenter live for an hour, there should be minimal difference between seeing him/her live vs seeing him/her on DVD. Which is what Susan seems to be describing.

But *training*, proper training as I define the word, in my mind, absolutely unequivocally REQUIRES the trainer structure unique exercise drills I can't find elsewhere... answer any personal questions that come up, and then watch me like a hawk during exercise drills, offering feedback & tuning to EVERYONE as the exercises unfold. I think training REQUIRES not just answering student questions IF they come up -- but extending feedback during exercises to EVERYONE. This is called establishing feedback (or sometimes feed-forward) loops.

Learning Loops are the MASSIVE CRITICAL FUNDAMENTAL difference between presenters... and trainers. If you don't see much or any difference between a live training and one on DVD, then your "trainer" FAILED to create useful feedback loops. It's not a failure of the student or just your learning style. It is a FUNDAMENTAL FAILURE of the trainer.

PRESENTERS don't bother with establishing and nurturing intimate feedback loops, but TRAINERS need to do so. I use the word intimate here because sometimes the kind of behavioral feedback provided can sound or feel pretty personal. A trainer might comment on personal behaviors or characteristics that are highly unconscious for us, but they feel might be getting in our way. Such sorts of feedback requires a real elegance with the use of language, so that students feel empowered, more aware, occasionally slightly sensitive, but NEVER personally criticized or demeaned/diminished.

I think quality learning loops are an absolutely REQUIRED PREREQUISITE for sporting the label "trainer." Shame on self-called "trainers" who don't build feedback loops with EVERY live-in-person-student, where those loops evolve over the course of any given seminar or workshop. My expectations are extremely high -- both for myself, and for anyone I would pay to train me. Any real *trainer* needs to take personal responsibility for each student's growth and development (just as each student needs to share that responsibility). If the trainer doesn't then I know I've wasted my money on training that wasn't actually training as I understand it (in which case, maybe the DVD is fine if all I'm getting is a live performance by 'just a presenter.'

The market is CHOCK full of "just presenters." But *serious trainers* are truly few & far between.

If a presenter stays aloof during exercises, then they're not training, they're just presenting, and letting the students learn on their own. Yawn. No thanks.

A great live training process SHOULD require real-time feedback and feed-forward loops between trainer & student. With those learning loops, then it can be said that a student is being well-trained, such that the student can make massive leaps FAR more quickly than could be done if they weren't getting lots of feedback. Who out there is mostly or only presenting, and not jumping "down into the trenches" with the students so as to give immediate, real-time, active feedback to students during exercise drills? If I paid to attend a training in NLP or Hypnosis, and didn't get those feedback loops from the first exercise onward, I'd walk out, requiring a refund of my tuition (except if I at least liked the presenter, where I'd exchange a small portion of my tuition for a DVD instead -- and get a refund for the rest).

Now don't get me wrong -- there's a lovely place for PRESENTERS in this marketplace. Some of them are amazing. And if you gain from listening to presenters, then these are the people you should all be buying DVDs from. As for me -- I'm an OK presenter. You want world-class presentations? I'd probably point you elsewhere away from me.

But for training... now that's an entirely different context. In the world of training, I think of myself as an artist in transferring massive leaps in knowledge and skill in short periods of time. But then I embrace the use of feedback loops, and by contrast, since I tend to run a lot of short applied courses where I see LOTS of people who've been 'certified' by many, many different presenters... (lol) and even some trainers... I can tell you that far too few 'trainers' out there even know what a feedback loop is. And that's just TRAGIC.

Regards,

- Jonathan

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Permalink Reply by Jonathan Altfeld on September 25, 2009 at 8:02am

OK, moving on to actually commenting on the original post now.

My perspective is that of an NLP Trainer who's been training short courses around the globe for 12 years.

This seems to me to be one of the most flagrantly dumb maneuvers I've ever heard of from a trainer. I see this as an issue of a combination of bait & switch, of failing to properly set and then meet/exceed your expectations, and of badly managing what you know/knew at each step of the process, not to mention testing you for how much bullshit you'd put up with.

I don't have a problem with multiple price-points. I publish different price-points based on dates (early-birds), and everyone who visits my website or calls me gets quoted the same choice in when to sign up and what to pay. And we all know the world doesn't object sufficiently to airlines charging different rates for different seats, right? In the world of travel, we pay what we can, or we pay what we have to. Nothing is fair in the travel industry. But we think it somehow should somehow be fair in the training industry. I know I think it should!

I also, when asked, offer referral discounts for people referred into courses. Or sales commissions sometimes instead. All these can affect prices.

Finally, occasionally I'll offer a guest pass to someone who's been to virtually everything else I offer, thereby rewarding a very valuable "inner-circle" type student/customer.

And in some rare circumstances, I honor a sliding scale for people who just can't afford my quoted rates for courses. But such situations aren't handled casually, and require some real proof of their situation. I like helping those in need. But not haphazardly and I refuse to be taken advantage of routinely. So there's an involved application process for such, with documentation required. People with solid means who just like trying to get cheap tickets, don't like having to provide extensive documentation that they can't afford to pay the quoted price. The application process scares off the casual cheap-ticket-seeking trainees.

If seat signups are low for any given course, occasionally at last minute, I'll extend free or discounted seats to people who've already attended MANY of my other courses. Never to new students; all incoming new students should be paying the same as what's quoted on the site. Again, it's a matter of setting & meeting expectations. If this were ever openly discussed at the event, all the paying students would find out they all paid in accordance with my website's advertised rates, and occasionally they might find one of my frequent repeat students got in as a guest or for less -- but then they'd also find out that such invitations were only sent out to people who'd already paid for at least $4000 in services & products and as such is one of my "inner circle" top customers. In other words, I don't think it feels like bait & switch to new students if they discover another student in the class got in cheap or free -- when I was rewarding them as one of my top paying customers. Not everyone wants to attend as many courses as they'd have to, to qualify for that deal.

So -- there are often multiple price points at seminars. But there should be sensible reasons for such. Distinctions between those price points that make sense.

But in YOUR case... what's distinguishing or separating you from those people who paid < $200 ???

Are they preferred customers? Seems to me there's no obvious categorical distinction between you and the lower-price-point payors.

I also think that if you're going to offer a deal to someone last minute, you have to at least be WILLING to provide it retroactively to everyone else who paid more. Or at least extend a lower price deal but exclude whatever increased added-value or bonuses the higher price-point payors would receive.

To lock you into a $999 rate, and then actually put you in a position to find out that most people paid 1/5 of what you're expected to pay strikes me as outrageous. Frankly it just seems like a rookie, stupid mistake.

Regards,

- Jonathan Altfeld

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Permalink Reply by Kevin Cole-NLPTrainingQuest.com on September 25, 2009 at 9:12am

Well said Jonathon and Thank You for catching that comment on not seeing a difference between DVD and live training! I don't know how I missed that!!!

With much respect to Susan who I empathize with for whoever she trained with in a live training that did such a horrendous job, although I feel there is a great deal of value in DVD's/Audios, etc. there absolutely is no replacement for live training.

And yes, if the instructor/trainer fully understands and utilizes feedback loops (and you are correct, many do not) then whether a 2 day workshop, a 7 day or even 21 day certification course, students will understand that material well enough to be able to practice it further in the real world and expand on those skills as they continue on towards true mastery.

I remember one of the first live NLP training I attended, there were no feedback loops whatsoever. As a matter of fact, during practice exercises, the *presenter* in this case (to use Jonathan's analogy) would always disappear on a smoke break. I took this as a learning experience on what NOT to do in my own trainings and this is why I put so much effort into fully utilizing those feedback loops in every course I teach.

**By the way, for those that may not know, a *feedback loop* is simply a metaphor used, in this case to describe how a trainer continually gathers information, notices what is working, notices what is not with the students learnings, and changes his/her approach accordingly to the class and the highly individual learning styles of the students in it. A well trained practitioner should most definitely do the same with his/her clients.

Again, as Jonathon shared, it is very much like an Art. In spite of common myths, NLP is not just a bunch of techniques that are performed in exactly the same way with completely different clients. In spite of another common myth, when doing change-work, we are not working with computers, we are working with human beings and human beings are the ultimate variable, meaning we are all extraordinarily unique.

This is exactly why a live training, in my *not so humble* opinion should never be taught the exact same way and needs to be kept small enough for the instructor to be able to calibrate to which students are truly understanding the material, which aren't, and in many cases, making extra time to assist those that may require a little additional help. Even if it means during a break or after class.

And again, back to video or *long distance training*. Used in conjunction with live training, I think they are extremely valuable. I tell my students all the time that if they want to integrate these learnings even more then start listening to product of other trainers. Yes, you hear me right... I said of OTHER trainers because I know that even though when we hear something from someone else in a slightly different way, it ingrains the learnings that much stronger.

I also tell students that after taking my trainings to come back! I don't charge them a dime for it and when they do, then they integrate these learnings on an even deeper scale.

Anyway, excuse me for digressing from the post a bit but when I read Jonathan's comment on the post regarding there not being much difference between DVD's & Live Trainings, I really had to chime in there. Thanks again for catching it Jonathon...


Stay Well Everyone,

Kevin Cole









Jonathan Altfeld said:

Wow, do I ever have a lot of responses to this thread. I'll begin with replying to Susan French's comment that she doesn't see much difference between live training and training on DVD. As my experience (and as I'd hope my students' experience) is SO vastly different from her perspective, I would respectfully LOVE to know who she attended courses with. Not so I can belittle anyone. I just want to know who to classify more as a presenter, than a real trainer.
Live training should be vastly different than DVDs. But then I am drawing an enormous distinction in my own mind between presenting, and training, and I really don't hear that distinction being made by a lot of people. Yet, if you aren't making that distinction, you could very well be cheating yourself out of better distinctions others already know about (or, swallowing the WRONG Kool-Aid, so to speak). If you watch a presenter live for an hour, there should be minimal difference between seeing him/her live vs seeing him/her on DVD. Which is what Susan seems to be describing.

But *training*, proper training as I define the word, in my mind, absolutely unequivocally REQUIRES the trainer structure unique exercise drills I can't find elsewhere... answer any personal questions that come up, and then watch me like a hawk during exercise drills, offering feedback & tuning to EVERYONE as the exercises unfold. I think training REQUIRES not just answering student questions IF they come up -- but extending feedback during exercises to EVERYONE. This is called establishing feedback (or sometimes feed-forward) loops.

Learning Loops are the MASSIVE CRITICAL FUNDAMENTAL difference between presenters... and trainers. If you don't see much or any difference between a live training and one on DVD, then your "trainer" FAILED to create useful feedback loops. It's not a failure of the student or just your learning style. It is a FUNDAMENTAL FAILURE of the trainer.

PRESENTERS don't bother with establishing and nurturing intimate feedback loops, but TRAINERS need to do so. I use the word intimate here because sometimes the kind of behavioral feedback provided can sound or feel pretty personal. A trainer might comment on personal behaviors or characteristics that are highly unconscious for us, but they feel might be getting in our way. Such sorts of feedback requires a real elegance with the use of language, so that students feel empowered, more aware, occasionally slightly sensitive, but NEVER personally criticized or demeaned/diminished.

I think quality learning loops are an absolutely REQUIRED PREREQUISITE for sporting the label "trainer." Shame on self-called "trainers" who don't build feedback loops with EVERY live-in-person-student, where those loops evolve over the course of any given seminar or workshop. My expectations are extremely high -- both for myself, and for anyone I would pay to train me. Any real *trainer* needs to take personal responsibility for each student's growth and development (just as each student needs to share that responsibility). If the trainer doesn't then I know I've wasted my money on training that wasn't actually training as I understand it (in which case, maybe the DVD is fine if all I'm getting is a live performance by 'just a presenter.'

The market is CHOCK full of "just presenters." But *serious trainers* are truly few & far between.

If a presenter stays aloof during exercises, then they're not training, they're just presenting, and letting the students learn on their own. Yawn. No thanks.

A great live training process SHOULD require real-time feedback and feed-forward loops between trainer & student. With those learning loops, then it can be said that a student is being well-trained, such that the student can make massive leaps FAR more quickly than could be done if they weren't getting lots of feedback. Who out there is mostly or only presenting, and not jumping "down into the trenches" with the students so as to give immediate, real-time, active feedback to students during exercise drills? If I paid to attend a training in NLP or Hypnosis, and didn't get those feedback loops from the first exercise onward, I'd walk out, requiring a refund of my tuition (except if I at least liked the presenter, where I'd exchange a small portion of my tuition for a DVD instead -- and get a refund for the rest).

Now don't get me wrong -- there's a lovely place for PRESENTERS in this marketplace. Some of them are amazing. And if you gain from listening to presenters, then these are the people you should all be buying DVDs from. As for me -- I'm an OK presenter. You want world-class presentations? I'd probably point you elsewhere away from me.

But for training... now that's an entirely different context. In the world of training, I think of myself as an artist in transferring massive leaps in knowledge and skill in short periods of time. But then I embrace the use of feedback loops, and by contrast, since I tend to run a lot of short applied courses where I see LOTS of people who've been 'certified' by many, many different presenters... (lol) and even some trainers... I can tell you that far too few 'trainers' out there even know what a feedback loop is. And that's just TRAGIC.

Regards,

- Jonathan

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Permalink Reply by Hugh Cole on September 25, 2009 at 10:55am

Doreen
Do you know why I like you? Because you have a way of asking the very best question at the very best time and eliciting a thunderstorm of Great Responses. By the time I get here Jonathan Altfeld and Kevin Cole have already given you such great answers that there is little I can add. You have touched a real nerve here. There is an unwritten rule in the NLP and HYPNOSIS industry that if you can't say something good don't say anything at all. It's cost a whole bunch of people a whole bunch of money and invested them with nickel and dime skill sets (which is the real tragedy!).
Personally, your story sounded like disgustingly unethical marketing practices to me and I get a kick out of folks dancing around the name of the "mystery mousketeer" for fear of legal action. It sounded like bait and switch of the worst kind. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet, but the efluent from an outdoor toilet is not a Rose-like smell.
There is a theme that runs through all the discussions of this type on the site. I will try to crystalize it by asking AGAIN the question "What is a certification". and I will answer it by saying a certification is a piece of paper with an autograph or two on it. It's evidence that your butt (with or without your brain) spent a certain number of days enconsed in a chair, in a conference room at a motel. The value is really in the autograph because you either do or do not have the desired Skills.
Personally, in the field of NLP training, I value a Jonathan Altfeld autograph highly. Why? First because my friend Craig Eubanks recommended him to me and I value Craigs opinion highly, 2. Because the skillset I got from my first training surpassed my expectations even a week after I completed the course, 3. Because he has a clear cut fluffless curriculum and a fee structure that tells me he is in it to teach me, not to make a quick buck because his house payment is due. His ealrly bird discounts are clearly spelled out on his webpage and 4 Because everyone I have sent to him comes back telling me thank you for the recommendation, just like I did with Craig.
If you really want to make money as a trainer the last paragraph should have been very important to you. Its a blueprint for how to reach in my wallet and get out my credit card and have us both feel good after the transaction. But it should also be a warning to you... because ... I am going to talk. I am going to say great things about a great training. and I am going to put it right out there in the public ...I will mention names just Like I did with Jonathan. But if you have left a not so Rose-like taste in someones mouth like someone has apparently done with Doreen .. She's gonna talk too .... and the next time the mortgage is due... the results may not be as good as they were this time.

Hugh Cole
making them dizzy one post at a time.

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Permalink Reply by Doreen Cohanim C.Ht on September 25, 2009 at 11:59am

Thank you Huge,

Yes I will talk and I will not use Names, but I will talk and compliments the one who are here really to help and to educate others the skills the have and the skills they need for whatever reasons, either to improve their life style or to improve others, in face to even improve both self and others.
And Yes I will talk about bad experiences, not necessarily using names, but giving some tips for others to be more aware with their decisions in regards to continue educations, "Mistakes Leads to Success", this is what I have always learned from my mistakes..

According to this person he started reading all books, attended all the seminars and workshops but could not find answers, since all the programs offered what to do but not how to do, so his success laid him to the seeds of NLP, where he finally discovered a proved results to what all high achieving individuals had learned to become successful, Yap.. He learned the secret of "COMMUNICATION"! with themselves and others.

His company received hundreds of calls and emails letting him know how his company helped in changing his life, lol yap, he did change my life too, and I thank him for that, I learned to be smarter....

Wow from age 15 hes being doing all that, and he has 25 years of experience bla bla bla was trained under Christopher Howard, Robert Dilts at NLP University, Richard Bandler and Associates, The Tad James Company, The Anthony Robins Companies, The Gary De Rodriguez Seminars, and many others who have bond his professional skills to teach and to guide us to be the best.... By the way He is one of the of the top speakers in America because he gives audience not only "what to do" but also "How to do" , and I never heard about him until I joined one of this meetups? This is fascinating to me :), actually very impressive resume, this guys says he discovered his quest to uncover the secret to all abundance, No wonder he gives a way free trainings... well, I guess he is so wealthy that he needs to charge some for $197 and some to bargain with ( out of desperation, if you ask me ) so he can get some low-balling deals.

Interesting, isn't It? He sure is a good business man, come or not cone, he is a business man and there will be always Innocent people who will buy this sweet story's... Hey I almost went for it, If I didn't do the registration myself, great organization, lol...

Just having fun guys... Thanks for your participation.

Doreen Cohanim C.Ht,HBCE
www.EnterYourMind.com
www.HypnoCruise.com

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Permalink Reply by Doreen Cohanim C.Ht on September 25, 2009 at 12:16pm

Hello Ann Marie, Thank you for your kind concern, This whole thing did eat me up, but in the past... and I did what I had to do, thanks for your kind offering... and FYI I didn't use the NLP to work on me, since I an new to NLP, but I used and applied self hypnosis, self coaching, energy healing and EFT, and believe me I am so not beating myself up over this issue, It's over and done with, just because I am responding to all the great advices and discussion here, It does not I am still beating myself up, It means I am over with it and I can still answer responses with an open mind and having furn with it.

Not sure if it has anything to do with me being Kinesthetic, but this is how I heal from anything, unless it is deep rooted, and it still bothers me, only then I make sure I take care of it too, even if I need to ask for help, never felt emberest to ask for help.

Respectfully, Doreen Cohanim C.Ht

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Permalink Reply by Fable Goodman on September 25, 2009 at 2:40pm

Thanks Jonathan, Kevin, and Hugh,

great incisive posts.

I do not offer trainings (for money) but have personally trained and mentored a handfull of good therapists, (who are on hypnothoughts) and I hope that they would say, they have had my individual attention, good feedback loops, ongoing support, etc.

I consider each of them personal friends, and in most cases, I would would trust them with my life (and in the case of Joey-Diabolo-De-Smart-Guy, I have done so on a number of occsaions, as he has juggled hammers and knives over my head)

Next year, (for the first time in many years, I plan to be doing some live training events, for money, so I will be considering all the points I am gleaning from this thread.

Thanks again to Doreen for starting it.


LOve and hugs,


Fable

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Permalink Reply by Doreen Cohanim C.Ht on September 25, 2009 at 3:43pm

Wow, Johnathan, I just had time to read all your responses, great points, and I agree with everything you posted, as to what happened to me, one, the other students were not any different from me, In fact I was involved in the meet-ups where most of these guys were not.

I also want to let you know that the email we all received, separately came to all members by mistake, since it did say To: So and So, I am offering this killer deal to you, because this person did offered to help him for free, and If I remember correctly, the one who offered to help for free was already an NLP trainer... so If you ask me today, It was a trick.. to get us want the same deal, so he can negotiate the original $1500 with each and every one of us via email and phone to get us the deals he negotiated separately, that is why only three or four of us agreed to different prices just two days before the actual training, and that was when we received the Email...

When he lucked me to the $999 rate, I was very happy, he even agreed to do three payment of $333 where one I pay at the registration, and the other $333 in the end of each month, I took it as being very lucky to have this great opportunity, so he was all fair with me all along until By Mistake, without thinking that he was going to shoot on his own foot, by asking me to do the registration for him by arriving early to help plus collecting the money...

I was even happy that I was given the opportunity to help, I took it as he trusted me so much, that I was actually going to collect the money....

So by actually putting me in that position to find out that most people paid 1/5 of what I was expected to pay striked me as " wait a minute" lets not jump into conclusions, and find out are this people formal students, and to my surprise they weren't, and that was just unbelievable.

So, was that a "Stupid Mistake", Oh yes, but I can't stop wondering if what happen was part of his subconscious mind wanting him to be caught? An innocent thought that just came to?

To be honest we all do innocent mistakes, and the point is, how do we deal with it?

Interesting concept, isn't it?

Thanks again, like Fable, I an thankful to all these responses, that helps me to be a better Instructor in what I do.

Respectfully, Doreen Cohanim C.Ht

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Permalink Reply by Fable Goodman on September 25, 2009 at 4:43pm

Hello Doreen,

You said:
"I also want to let you know that the email we all received, separately came to all members by mistake, since it did say To: So and So, I am offering this killer deal to you, because this person did offered to help him for free, and If I remember correctly, the one who offered to help for free was already an NLP trainer..."

Well... if that email was sent to eveyone by mistake... I'll eat my hat!

It's a classic scam, to send something to people (as if by accident,) just like allowing someone to overhear what is supposed to be a private conversation, to get them hooked, on an unmissable 'something for nothing' type deal.

the fact that he used a real NLP trainer's name, is just designed to lend credibility /plausability to his story.
This pattern of scam has been used for at least a hundred years, was very poppular in the 20's 30's in america, and is a common basis of storylines in 'The Sting' and 'Hustle'

The old ones are often the best!

Love and hugs,

Fable

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