Past Life Reggression V.S. The Bible

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Doreen Cohanim C.Ht on November 27, 2009 at 6:02pm

Hi Beverly,

I have been here for a long time and I remember inviting you to join after our first meetup, but you didn't emailed me back :)
It is a great place to be for advice and sharing tips.

Doreen Cohanim C.Ht
www.HypnoCruise.com

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Permalink Reply by Jackie Spencer on November 27, 2009 at 6:42pm

Peter, no one is preaching salvation, here. An question is being asked, that is all. It is entirely over the top to react in a fit of religious fanatacism with judgemental name-calling and threats of damnation. Great way to present a faith espousing love as its prime directive.

Once you get to the other side and know the truth first hand, get a message to me. In the meantime, I will continue to enjoy the thoughts and beliefs of people I respect as open-minded, sharing individuals.

In answer to the original question, I was taught only to use PLR when a client specifically requests it. If that client is a Christian he/she would probably have a very good reason for asking about this service and a great deal of trust in you as a practitioner to feel safe in asking. Honor the client's trust and trust your own intuition in answering their question.

J.

J.

Pete Aiton said:

The bible is 100% true and accurate and you are right to be concerned over PLR... The new age BS artists here will waffle on with their ignorance of biblical truth with the usual arrogance of those blinded by humanistic and demonic influence. To claim they know the bible has been edited and changed is simply egotistical lies, where on earth are the facts of this? Hypnosis is a phenomenon, but it is entirely natural and not at all conflicting with Christianity unless it is twisted and intertwined with new age BS like some try to do here. They speak with such conviction over matters to which they have no authority what so ever and wonder why truly spiritual ppl take offense to their blasphemy! Get you own house in order before you give others advise on how to achieve salvation you charlatans... There is but one GOD and one way to reach heaven and that is through CHRIST, there is no reincarnation nor is there righteousness in false doctrines, it is this arrogance which caused the fall and which still separates man from GOD...

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Permalink Reply by amber lee poole on November 27, 2009 at 7:44pm

Amazing... it never ceases to amaze me how people that believe so strongly in religion just have to be so unchristian!!

My beliefs might be slightly different but i NEVER tell someone what is right or wrong when it comes to their beliefs... and that leads me to my answer... I will flow with my client and what is comfortable for them - at this point in time PLR is something that doesn't really gel with me but i do use Timeline Therapy but would always explain the "metaphor" of past life to my clients because i'm not even sure if there is such a thing myself! hahahahaaa If i ever had someone that completely believed in it and wanted it, i would have to pass them on at present, but maybe one day.....

Amber xox

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Permalink Reply by Richard Clark MFT on November 27, 2009 at 7:54pm

****************MODERATOR NOTE**********************

Please do not feed the fires of religious debate here. This is not the place for that. James asked an honest question about professional ethics and got some very helpful answers. He was not asking about his religion or the fate of his soul and there should be no more discussion of those topics.

Richard

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Permalink Reply by James Klingensmith on November 27, 2009 at 8:01pm

Doreen Cohanim C.Ht said:

WOW... Peter, So If I am not a Christian, I will not reach heaven? All I am going to say to you,is: How can you be so disrespectful to other other peoples beliefs and religion, and FYI I don't think it is for you to make that decision as who goes to haven and who doesn't...



Please learn to cool your jet's Doreen, and don't be so disrespectful no one is out to get you, hopefully this advice will help in your profession to listen to people with out exploding.
So he said you will go to hell, I would be shocked if you have never heard that before. Yes in our bible we believe you will go to hell if you don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead and confess it from our lips.

So what!!!


You said your self you don't believe so how can this affect you.
I'm sure in your religion if I do not follow your rules and laws I would be condemned to damnation as well. Just like you tried to imposes your religion restrictions on Pete by telling him that he is not allowed to be a Christian because it interferes with your your beliefs.

We are not here to debate weather this religion is right or wrong only to decide if a Christian Hypnotherapist should preform PLR or even refer out when he believes it to be wrong.
I was serious I really needed help with this one.

We are sharing Ideas of what we believe in past life and this is a valid view point.
No one belittled your beliefs when you posted:

"החיים שלאחר המוות היא היסוד של האמונה היהודית.

יצירתו של אדם מעיד על חיי הנצח של הנשמה. התורה אומרת, "וזה האל יצר את האדם עפר מן האדמה, הוא נשף אל תוך נחיריו נשמה של החיים" (בראשית 2:7). על פסוק זה, המדינות זוהר כי "אחד מי מכות, מכות מתוך עצמו," המעידה כי הנשמה היא למעשה חלק של המהות של אלוהים. מאז אלוהים היא מהות רוחנית לחלוטין ולא פיזית, זה בלתי אפשרי כי הנשמה צריכה למות. (הפרשן Chizkuni - "זה למה הפסוק מכנה אותו "נפש החיים".)

זה מה התכוון שלמה המלך כאשר כתב, "האבק תחזור הקרקע כפי שהיה, והרוח תשוב אל האלוהים אשר נתנה." קהלת 12:17"

I can't read this writing in your religion does that mean I will go to hell?

So What!!!!! I have my own religion and I know I'm going to heaven when I die (see what I'm getting at)

In the long and the short If you read what Pete Aiton wrote and it offends you Please do not work with Christian clients you might not be tolerant and patient enough to handle this type of client (this is the view of most), and because of our closed views this is the only reason we are having this discussion.

Pete Aiton Thank you for posting your thread it is a wake up call to this discussion and the replies make it a more valid tread Jackie Spencer said, no one is preaching salvation although are Christian Clients and Therapist are (this is there religion) that is what the thread is about PLR on and/or from a Christian, because a Christians #1 concern is salvation. Pete maybe next time you might start with I or We believe you will go to hell. Not every one here understand our faith and yes even some (as you can tell) have short fuses and don't respect other religions. Thats okay all we can do is respect theirs you where not out of line and said nothing wrong in fact a wake up call for some of the closed minded reading this.

Let's get back on topic here.

Margret, I'm sorry I was unclear before just to clear this up: Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.
This passage helps say reincarnation and PLR can not exists in the Christian religion

Doreen Cohanim C.Ht said:

WOW... Peter, So If I am not a Christian, I will not reach heaven? All I am going to say to you,is: How can you be so disrespectful to other other peoples beliefs and religion, and FYI I don't think it is for you to make that decision as who goes to haven and who doesn't...
Respectfully, Doreen Cohanim C.Ht

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Permalink Reply by Jackie Spencer on November 27, 2009 at 8:51pm

Hi James. This is a very interesting topic. I admire your openness to the opinions of others. I do understand the conflict inherent in working with religion and PLR and find it enjoyable to learn different viewpoints when they are presented respectfully.

Believe it or not, my intent was to draw attention back to your question as I understood it. Perhaps I understood you incorrectly. If so, then I apologize for my response to Pete whose reply seemed harsh and intolerant. Perhaps I understood him incorrectly as well.

My response to you, to trust your own intuition regarding your clients and your methodology, is unchanged. Our clients will best benefit when we work within their belief system unless the work conflicts with ours past the point of comfort. Any anxiety we feel will show in our work. Our clients deserve better than that.

J.

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Permalink Reply by Ricky Strode on November 27, 2009 at 11:31pm

I don't know why everyone argues over religious views, because we all find out in the end. Thats my opinion and nothing more. I say do whatever you have to do to help them. Unless you don't feel comfortable doing that.

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Permalink Reply by Pete Atan on November 28, 2009 at 1:43am

Good morning. or at least it is here in London, may I reply by saying I never once used "name-calling and threats of damnation" If you knew me you would know that this is not in my character. I am certainly not a fanatic, and yes I respect the rights of others to believe what they wish too and I also reserve the right to reject their views in favour of biblical truth. What does annoy me is the off the cuff remarks about the legitimacy of the bible from ppl who are not qualified to offer anything more than opinion. Indeed if it is the OPINION of others to disregard the bible as being just the final cut of some quasi factual historical document, then fine, I can live with that, but pls say that it is OPINION.. However to make matter of fact statements ie the bible has been edited and mistranslated" which actually is the comment I was replying to. Is to me offensive and an attack on all I believe and live by and for that reason I felt the need to reply somewhat defensively. OPINION if offered is valid and the right of everyone but assumptions should not be made that ones opinion is factual or accurate. Back to hypnosis, I have soul searched in depth for years (16 to be precise) over whether I should participate in this profession; given that so many ppl do espouse new age ideologies intertwined with hypnosis, but actually through study and training with some excellent ppl, I now realise that it does not in any way conflict with my beliefs, which in fact was the point of the thread? I did reply with my vehement defence of the bible in response to the disrespectful and unthinking remarks of others. Perhaps you feel I am not entitled to be offended by this? To end this, may I tell you that I have not always been a Christian. In fact I came to the realisation of who JESUS is from the study of world religions and ancient philosophy (St Andrews University), so actually I studied the scriptures from an atheistic perspective originally not a closed minded approach. Lastly can I never implied that I have the right to condemn anyone to hell, that's God's privilege alone although the Torah is clear on the worship of false gods and idols, what is the first commandment? Certainly Doreen I do not wish for you or anyone to suffer in this life or the next, I respect you and value many of your comments here, I do think it is in keeping with the original thread that I replied from a Christian perspective because that most accurately addressed the question and also one can not separate GOD from any part of their life if they truly accept HIM. I sincerely hope that we can all still be friends, I do not ask you to compromise your beliefs but please do not ask me to compromise my relationship with my GOD in order to be politically correct. Further if you do not wish to risk being offended then first pls consider how your own comments may be interpreted by others. . May GOD bless you all and to James I say, read matthew 5 and stay close to the TRUTH dear brother. Pete

Jackie Spencer said:

Peter, no one is preaching salvation, here. An question is being asked, that is all. It is entirely over the top to react in a fit of religious fanatacism with judgemental name-calling and threats of damnation. Great way to present a faith espousing love as its prime directive.

Once you get to the other side and know the truth first hand, get a message to me. In the meantime, I will continue to enjoy the thoughts and beliefs of people I respect as open-minded, sharing individuals.

In answer to the original question, I was taught only to use PLR when a client specifically requests it. If that client is a Christian he/she would probably have a very good reason for asking about this service and a great deal of trust in you as a practitioner to feel safe in asking. Honor the client's trust and trust your own intuition in answering their question.

J.

J.

Pete Aiton said:

The bible is 100% true and accurate and you are right to be concerned over PLR... The new age BS artists here will waffle on with their ignorance of biblical truth with the usual arrogance of those blinded by humanistic and demonic influence. To claim they know the bible has been edited and changed is simply egotistical lies, where on earth are the facts of this? Hypnosis is a phenomenon, but it is entirely natural and not at all conflicting with Christianity unless it is twisted and intertwined with new age BS like some try to do here. They speak with such conviction over matters to which they have no authority what so ever and wonder why truly spiritual ppl take offense to their blasphemy! Get you own house in order before you give others advise on how to achieve salvation you charlatans... There is but one GOD and one way to reach heaven and that is through CHRIST, there is no reincarnation nor is there righteousness in false doctrines, it is this arrogance which caused the fall and which still separates man from GOD...

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Permalink Reply by Michael Ellner on November 28, 2009 at 5:02am

Hi James,

I do not believe in past lives - If a client wanted my help using a Past Life approach -- I would explain that in my opinion human beings have many lives within our lifetime - Example, between birth and 10 years is one life and between 10 and 20 is another life and between 20 and 30 is yet another life, etc., etc.

If my potential client is open to healing their "Past Lives" in that context -- I am happy to help them - If that's not what they have in mind - I say good bye and wish them well. On the other hand, if a client comes in believing that they are not smart, thin, tall or good enough to enjoy life or reach their goals -- I will challenge those beliefs.

Michael E.

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Permalink Reply by Lee Pelletier on November 28, 2009 at 7:45am

This has been an interesting discussion to read. There are many issues involved and religious faith is fundamental to our self-identity. That means when we adopt a faith system, we take it with great seriousness. With respect to all, I would like to address James Klingensmith's question, first, and then explain why Past Life Regression is an issue to anyone who holds the "BIBLE" containing the Old and the New Testaments as their divine and only rule for faith and conduct.

James Klingensmith asked if there is an ethical line regarding PLR. I believe there is such a line for hypnosis professionals on both sides of the question. While I am an ordained clergyman and hold a Master of Divinity degree from a well known and respected seminary, and hold credentials from conservative Christian organization, I am very careful in how I use religious faith in my hypnotic work. If someone comes to me as a Christian and/or as a minister and asks me about PLR, I can go through the whys and the wherefores that lead me to hold the position I hold. I am also happy to engage with anyone on the topic in an environment of respect. These ideas are important and worthy of discussion.

Peter Aiton used the phrase "New Age BS" in one of his comments. As a Christian, I may agree with his assessment but I do not agree with his choice of words. My problem is, if I were oriented toward New Age thought, I would not so much as give Peter a hearing after he dubbed my thinking BS. I am on solid biblical ground here, as the apostle Paul in his Mars Hill conversation (The Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 17) was gracious to those who believed differently than he. He engaged them from their point of view. Naturally, many people took issue with Peter's assessment.

Let's look at the ethical line for a moment. As we look at the ethical line, we need to begin with the hypnosis profession as a whole. For what does a person come to a hypnotist? As Havens and Walters say in their book "Hypnotherapy Scripts" those who come to a hypnotist or any other therapist are coming from a place of pain. Consistent with integrity to ourselves as individuals it is our job to help our clients relieve that pain. Integrity to myself requires that when a potential client asks me if I do PLR, I tell them that PLR is not a part of my practice. I will also say that when I am asked about PLR it feels as though the client is looking for an "experience" as opposed to an "answer".

Regardless of our belief system, James, it is an ethical violation to use a hypnosis session to lead a person away from their present belief system toward they hypnotist's belief system. Because my office is hypnosis services and training center, I do not overwhelm my office with symbols of my faith. I clearly leave MDiv in my alphabet following my name, so that people will know I hold that earned degree, and in my publicity oriented biographical information my status as an ordained minister is stated, as it is in my client bill of rights. I believe a client needs to know that basic information about me as they consider trusting me to provide hypnotism services.

As president of the Clergy Special Interest Group (CSIG) of the National Guild of Hypnotists I wrote an article for the Journal of Hypnotism earlier this year in which I laid out the reasons why biblically knowledgeable Christians are likely to reject reincarnation and PLR. Briefly, it has to do with how one gains salvation. Christianity uniquely holds that salvation is a gift which can be neither earned nor deserved. In Paul's letter to the Ephesians, (2:8-9) the Apostle says "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast." Salvation in Christianity comes by the action of God.

In the other belief systems of which I am aware, salvation depends on the quality of an individual's life, a great act of some description, or an idea that all are saved, or by following certain behavioral rules.

Reincarnation and the idea of PLR are founded in Hindu thought, and other mystical systems of thought. WIthout wanting to caricature those ideas, the underlying principle is that one progresses through a series of existences until, by developing good karma in each existence, they reach a place of enlightenment leading to Nirvana and absorption into Brahaman, the Universal God, the Universal Soul or ultimate reality.

Whereas in thought systems that allow for reincarnation salvation is won by leading a good life, attaining good Karma and experiencing enlightenment, Christianity teaches that no one can be good enough to earn salvation on their own, so the Atonement (payment) for sins by the death of Jesus on the Cross and resurrection on the third day provides a free gift of salvation. The response to the free gift and unmerited forgiveness is to be kind and compassionate one toward another, tender hearted and forgiving toward one another in a way of emulating the activity of Jesus (Ephesians 4:32). The quality of life you live, having received salvation is your way of saying "thank you" for the gift received, your thank you note to God (Romans 6). These concepts are mutuallly exclusive. Either you attain "enlightenment" by continuously improving until you get it right, or you receive salvation as a "free gift." If it were possible for reincarnation to provide the opportunity for such enlightenment, then Christianity would be unnecessary.

The article in full is posted, or going to be posted on the site www.clergyhypnotists.org. If you know any clergy or religious leaders from any religious group, please invite them to complete the survey at http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/DSKJ5B3. While laypeople can complete the survey, I am trying to learn what religous leaders think about hypnosis so we can better understand their confidence or lack of confidence in hypnosis as a modality.

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Permalink Reply by Scott Cooper on November 28, 2009 at 8:45am

Dear James,


Below are many other references that you may want to refer to so that we have the full picture, not just one quote Bibles, ect..

As a certified Hypnotherapist I am held to standards, to ethics, I honor my client, keep them safe, help them create coping skills. I truly believe there is a great Karma and that my good deeds will come full circle, so I must help my clients in every way I can.

It is my personal life experience, that there are many bibles, a Koran, a Bagavakita,, and many other books on this and that have very similar accounts. Yet it is also my personal experience that certain Organized religions use them to devide, to elevate their superior religion and exclude certain groups of people on planet earth.

And as a father I'm trying to teach my children to Include,, to Share,, to find the good in people and to trust and live an honorable life with out burdening anyone,, including all types of skin,, all kinds of religion and to grow and tolerate as the only constant is change,, and to change for the better of all men and women.

This morning, when our family was having breakfast, the same fanatical religion sent two of their "messangers" to knock on our private residence to "open our minds to their better way of life, better belief's." So my wife and I invited them in,, to eat with us,, they were very young,, and very cold and hungry.. Yet, even when we were gracious hosts, of their uninvited visit,, they kept preaching to our children that we were not living an honarable life if we didn't accept, blah,, blah.

I'm not writing this to embarras these "messangers" of what has been their life experience, just making a minor point of how uninpressed we were that they just couldn't eat, without pushing in their limited opinon,, their superior belief's.

I encourage you to take your time and look up each example of Hypnosis in Bibles,, in The Unity Church,, and many other church's ect,, just look at the members of this great Hypnothoughts community, most faiths are here, reading what we are writing.



Biblical Passages Referring To Hypnotic Phenomena

Genesis 1:1 Matthew 14:25-31
Genesis 22 Matthew 17:14-20
Deuteronomy 31:6 Matthew 23:9
Joshua 1:5 Mark 5:25
II Samuel 22:29-33 Mark 11:24
Job 22:28 Mark 13:5-6
Psalms 103:1 Mark 16:17-18
Proverbs 25:11 Luke 4:23-24
Isaiah 26:3 John 14:1-7
Isaiah 43:5 John 14:10-14
Isaiah 65:17 John 14:27
Jeremiah 29:13 Acts 19:1-6
Matthew 7:1 Romans 2:1
Matthew 8:1-3 I Corinthians 6:19
Matthew 8:5-11 I Corinthians 13:1-13
Matthew 8:13 I Corinthians 15:2
Matthew 8:14-15 Esphesians 4:6
Matthew 8:17 Phillipians 4:4-9
Matthew 8:23-26 Phillipians 4:13
Matthew 9:2-3 Phillipians 4:23
Matthew 9:20-22 II Timothy 1:7
Matthew 9:28-29 James 5:13
Matthew 9:32 I John 4:4,8,18
Matthew 11:28 I John 5:4
Matthew 13:57-58

As for Past Life Regression,, I've lived my own past life regression,, it really helped get my higher self on the same page with my conscious mind. It was a wonderful, motivating experience.

And as a Therapist, during trance I use "Now you will find it very easy to revisit the cause of the effect, you are blah, blah, trying to achieve.

As I continue my education I find a similar message through most biblical references..

So my answer is Yes,, It if makes a person feel better, helps them heal, I say Yes to Time Line, Regression,, or what ever label you choose.


So let's look at the whole picture, not just the one piece of the puzzle you are questioning.

You are putting out one reference to the Bible, and in return I am sending you approx 50 to reconsider and assist you in brodening your horizon.

Question back to you,

1. Please define "Christian" for me so I can better understand your belief of what a Christian is? Do you include all faiths, colors, opinions?

2. Is it possible that powerful church leaders use bibles and other propaganda to get people to follow them instead of following others? I'm here, flipping the channels and Jimmy Swaggart is preaching his type of Chri

3. Is it ethical to use fear to deter citizens from going to a Hypnotherapist? I ask this as I have felt, heard some of the garbage that is taught, twisted and used to manipulate large groups of religion.

Last thought, one of my favorite teachers, Depok Chopra is on Youtube.com. I encourage you to invest some time and listen to a brilliant man. A man that has travelled the whole world and take into consideration his valuable opinions on Organized Religion, bibles, and how certain groups twist things for their own benefit, even when it burdens others massive groups leading to some of our largest wars.

In Peace

Scott Cooper
Clarkston Mi

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Permalink Reply by Lee Pelletier on November 28, 2009 at 11:33am

Scott:

You ask 3 very important questions. There are words that have a multiplicity of meanings. There are concepts that can become easily misunderstood by the way they are used by a given speaker. Even though you asked James the question, let me answer as well.

1. What is a "Christian"? While there can be some interpretation of this term, simply put, a Christian is one who follows the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. (American Heritage Dictionary Online). For the sake of clarity, I added the "of Nazareth." Then comes a natural question. What does it mean to say one follows the teachings of Jesus. You wll find a variety of understandings as to what that means. Those for whom the Bible provides "The Divine and only rule for faith and conduct" will hold that to follow the teachings of Jesus means to have his atoning death on the cross applied to one's sin by willingly accepting Jesus as Savior. By the way, with the statement "Divine and Only Rule for Faith and Conduct" one is reference to teachings of the Bible regarding how to live. Naturally, even in the ancient world, as technological advances came about, there came a place of application of biblical principles to new realities. It was Jesus who said "If you love me, keep my commandments." Jesus said of Himself "I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE, no man comes to the father except through me (John 14:6). Something that gets lost in all the debating about Christianity is that throughout history, and certainly from the Bible, it is about the grace of God overcoming the sins of men. All of human good works are compared to filthy rags when held against the grace of God. It is from this that Christians develop the exclusive mode of thinking that says you cannot be saved or have salvation apart from Jesus, no matter how good a life you lead. In sum, then, a Christian is one who has accepted Jesus Christ as Savior.

2. "Is it possible that powerful church leaders use bibles and other propaganda to get people to follow them instead of following others? I'm here, flipping the channels and Jimmy Swaggart is preaching his type of Chri. . . " I am not sure of your point here, but most who bring up the issues you are bringing up refer to the manipulations and misuse of trust by people like Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Baker and some of the other discredited preachers. Another preacher said something very well, which bears listening to by all preachers, and all hypnotists as well. "The best of men are, at best, men." Very simply put, though people may or may not start out from a good place, they can fall into sinful traps and go against the very thing they deem most important. Like we as hypnotists are embarrassed by the Svengalis of the world but do not wish to be painted by their brush, so faithful Christians abhor the phoniness of those who like Simon Magus in the book of Acts would use the Gospel for personal profit.

3. Is it ethical to use fear to deter citizens from going to a Hypnotherapist? I ask this as I have felt, heard some of the garbage that is taught, twisted and used to manipulate large groups of religion. Of course this is not really a question of ethics but motivation. Why is a preacher trying to deter people from going to a hypnotist? It is simple, really. They try to deter because of fear of the consequences to that individual. They misuse the same fear to try and get people to abstain from drunkenness, adultery, gluttony and smoking. Fear works as a protector for a portion of the population and so it is dished out in large doses to the population at large. I do not support the use of fear, unless I am the one using it. For example, I think nothing of using fear to motivate a smoker to quit. Unfortunately, because our PR for hypnosis is in need of such improvement, the fear that many church leaders have seems reasonable to them. The book of James tells us that not many should teach, because they will be judged by a stricter standard. That is one that should give the charlatans pause, but it won't because they often see faith as a vehicle for getting what they want, so don't mind misusing it.

So that you understand the impact of words, when you conclude by citing your fondness for Depak Chopra, you will lose most Bible believing Christians who read what you are saying because he is presenting a faith system contrary to Christianity. He does so brilliantly and often states that he has nothing against Christianity or other organized religions. To conservative and evangelical Christians he is a famous individual preaching a different path to salvation.

You mentioned "messengers" in your post. There are people (by the way, the messengers you mention would not be considered Christian by those who follow biblical Christianity), who believe that it is so important to make converts that they spend every bit of their free time in order to do so. I have spent many an hour in people's homes helping them through one crisis or another through my years in ministry. Often life had not turned out as they felt they had a right to expect. Other times they were caught in inescapable pain. There are many reasons that people have spiritual needs.

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