Past Life Reggression V.S. The Bible

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Leshem Yosef on December 1, 2009 at 12:59am

Very good answer James

Explanation -not an argument- and not a forcing opinion-just with full respect and smiling face

Reincarnation - the subject is covered in old kabala books upside-down and if you posses this knowledge there is even a beauty in that and g-d mercy all over the subject
The mainly idea of reincarnation generally is that you have a second chance
that mean that the experience of being reincarnate will remind you to be better and make the different and we learned from the bible that you don't reincarnate more then 3 time after that you go to heaven or hell and even hell is just a cleaning laundry to be ready for heaven
if a believer except the idea that g-d is the creator and he is endless and we are limited being so its not about right or wrong its more about except that what we don't know or understand its just our self limitation and g-d plain is always perfect so if g-d want as to reincarnate even if we don't understand it it must be pure and perfect
The sun raising in the morning its fact why we can discuss
With respect
Yosef






James Klingensmith said:

Leshem Yosef said:

Hi James
Don’t get me wrong I don’t want to argue about religion o no Just a philosophic question You as religious don’t believe in reincarnation Or you do believe in reincarnation but don’t believe that it's allow to mess with it


Awesome Question:
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!WARNING BELOW IS ONLY PERSONAL OPINION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I hope I don't get buzzed and no one get's mad at me if I answer this question honestly, Please don't read if you get offended easily I am only answering a question.
I believe the idea of reincarnation is insulting, this would mean that God screwed up, or He is playing a game with our lives and are lives are equivalent to Mario Bro's., or we have no soul and we are nothing more than atoms, or this is hell and we can never escape like Bill Murry's Groundhogs Day where we have to live it over and over and over again.
There would be no reason to say your sorry, try to live a good life, fall in love, believe in love, do the right thing, or to grow older than 30, because you would be trapped in a never ending cycle.
I see clients for pain and people down on their luck if I entertained this idea with my clients even a little and they believed this idea that one could just restart. Truthfully if they had an ounce of intelligence they would drink the kool-aid. Why not just kill yourself when thing go bad you have another life waiting for you anyway?
Personally It would make me upset to believe I have no control where I go when I die and this would make life pointless.
I have a choice to believe the Bible is true and reincarnation is false. Here is the cool part if I am wrong I will be reborn after I die and maybe I could get it right next time. If I am right I go to heaven. This is the only win-win situation possible.

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Permalink Reply by Doreen Cohanim C.Ht on December 1, 2009 at 1:27am

Thank you Pete, and Please pray for me...

All the best, Doreen Cohanim C.Ht

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Permalink Reply by Leshem Yosef on December 1, 2009 at 1:38am

Dont get me wrong
I have 0% idea if Reincarnation has any connection with PLR for good or ......


Leshem Yosef said:

Very good answer James

Explanation -not an argument- and not a forcing opinion-just with full respect and smiling face

Reincarnation - the subject is covered in old kabala books upside-down and if you posses this knowledge there is even a beauty in that and g-d mercy all over the subject
The mainly idea of reincarnation generally is that you have a second chance
that mean that the experience of being reincarnate will remind you to be better and make the different and we learned from the bible that you don't reincarnate more then 3 time after that you go to heaven or hell and even hell is just a cleaning laundry to be ready for heaven
if a believer except the idea that g-d is the creator and he is endless and we are limited being so its not about right or wrong its more about except that what we don't know or understand its just our self limitation and g-d plain is always perfect so if g-d want as to reincarnate even if we don't understand it it must be pure and perfect
The sun raising in the morning its fact why we can discuss
With respect
Yosef






James Klingensmith said:

Leshem Yosef said:

Hi James
Don’t get me wrong I don’t want to argue about religion o no Just a philosophic question You as religious don’t believe in reincarnation Or you do believe in reincarnation but don’t believe that it's allow to mess with it


Awesome Question:
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!WARNING BELOW IS ONLY PERSONAL OPINION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I hope I don't get buzzed and no one get's mad at me if I answer this question honestly, Please don't read if you get offended easily I am only answering a question.
I believe the idea of reincarnation is insulting, this would mean that God screwed up, or He is playing a game with our lives and are lives are equivalent to Mario Bro's., or we have no soul and we are nothing more than atoms, or this is hell and we can never escape like Bill Murry's Groundhogs Day where we have to live it over and over and over again.
There would be no reason to say your sorry, try to live a good life, fall in love, believe in love, do the right thing, or to grow older than 30, because you would be trapped in a never ending cycle.
I see clients for pain and people down on their luck if I entertained this idea with my clients even a little and they believed this idea that one could just restart. Truthfully if they had an ounce of intelligence they would drink the kool-aid. Why not just kill yourself when thing go bad you have another life waiting for you anyway?
Personally It would make me upset to believe I have no control where I go when I die and this would make life pointless.
I have a choice to believe the Bible is true and reincarnation is false. Here is the cool part if I am wrong I will be reborn after I die and maybe I could get it right next time. If I am right I go to heaven. This is the only win-win situation possible.

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Permalink Reply by Pete Atan on December 1, 2009 at 1:43am

Your very welcome Doreen, I will do so at your request, indeed if you give me your address via private message I will be glad to send you a new bible foc...? I hope you have a lovely day, I am in the process of packing in preparation to move house but I keep being sidetracked by a great book I am reading on CBT, if you like I can send you a copy of this too? Regards. Pete

Doreen Cohanim C.Ht said:

Thank you Pete, and Please pray for me...

All the best, Doreen Cohanim C.Ht

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Permalink Reply by Doreen Cohanim C.Ht on December 1, 2009 at 2:22am

Thank you Pete,

I knew from the beginning that you are a very kind man, and yes you have my permission to pray for me, also not to be disrespectful to you, but I have already read your bible, and my bible, and other bibles, and I find it to be fascinating with great inspirations and holly powers, but I chose at this time not to follow any path except the unconditional love for all and believing in one GOD and the higher power that It Is, and again not be be disrespectful, I believe that your god is my GOD, in other words I believe in one GOD only, that serves who ever chose to believe in his higher power, so I am sure it is your GOD as well, and I love Jesus, and I believe in Jesus, but I chose not except him as my GOD, Instead I except him as a leader, angel, or profit same way he is to many other people who believe in him, and I hope that you don't mind that I think this way..

I wish you also a lovely restful day and good luck with your packing and your up coming move.

Doreen Cohanim C.Ht,HBCE

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Permalink Reply by Lee Pelletier on December 1, 2009 at 6:05am

James:

The survey is open to religious leaders of all persuasions. In the list of religious categories I list several world religions and then include an option "other". I have had more than one Wiccan respond, to this point. This survey is an honest attempt to understand various religious viewpoints on hypnosis. The one request that I make of respondents (request, not requirement) is that they be in leadership of a body of followers. I am not particularly interested, for purposes of the survey, in those who have either been "self-ordained" or have purchased on-line ordinations (or equivalent).

Also, I have a couple of "open ended" responses available, including one where a respondent can express their view of hypnosis in relationship to their belief system, in about 200 words.

On a seperate note, James, it frustrating to see the name-calling. There is no-good purpose in name-calling, and such language denies the writer a hearing. Engaging respectfully with those with whom you disagree is a sign of emotional intelilgence and personal maturity. I will say that emotional reactions and name calling transcend discussion topics on this and other forums. It is very easy to "own" ideas at a level that brings about emotional responses. Those emotional and emotion generating responses will often, unfortunately, subject other ideas by the same writer to reduced credibility, and that is unfortunate.

Each person who comes to a point of view does so sincerely. Their personal process is to be respected, even if you disagree with their conclusions. I will say that I have experienced more sharply worded vitriol from those who don't like my ideas than has been expressed here.

Having said that, it is not fair to highjack this discussion of ethics and religion to push the survey I am undertaking or ideas that might better be addressed in the group "Hypnosis the Christian and the Bible." Alternatively, a new discussion can be created so that the focus on this issue can remain on this issue.



Peter--No one here is objecting to you being Christian. They're objecting to you being obnoxious. Curiously, some here have referred to that as simply being Christian.

Lee--Your posts have been very eloquent and reasonable, and you sound respectful of other religions. I have a question for you, and it is meant to test the boundaries of that respect: You mentioned a survey and asked if we would direct clergy and religious leaders to it. I know a number of Wiccan high priests and priestesses, and I can easily track down leaders within the Druidic, Asatru, and Voudon communities. Are they the kind of people you are seeking to survey? Or are they "new-age BS artists"?

If they're not the kind of people you want, perhaps you could be respectful enough to say that you want the opinions of Christian clergy and religious leaders.

I never push my religion on a client, or anyone else for that matter, in part because it's against my religion to do so. :-)

However, I would like to clarify to Klingensmith that my religion does not say you are damned to Hell for not agreeing with us--because our view of a loving Divinity is not congruent with the idea of a damning god.

Blessed be,

James

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Permalink Reply by Kathleen Hanover on December 1, 2009 at 6:53am

Here's what I think, as a client, not a hypnotherapist:

If I come to you to help me improve the quality of my life through hypnotherapy, your religious beliefs (or lack thereof) should be invisible to me. They're none of my business, up to the point that they interfere with your ability to help me. If your beliefs limit your usefulness to me, then they do become my business, because I'm paying you to do a job.

For example, in Pete's case, I would never go to him for hypnotherapy. Based on how you express yourself, Pete, I think it's impossible for you to view me as a person who is even worthy of help, or possibly even view me as a person at all, given the fact that I'm not a Christian according to your definition. (For the record, I'm a secular humanist and a Pastafarian. Although the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a parody, I have found that Pastafarians tend to be happy, inclusive and caring people who like to dress like Pirates and who revere a great Fettucini Alfredo. What's not to like?)

If there's something you as a hypnotherapist don't care to do (for whatever reason), just say, "well, I don't specialize in that approach, but here are the names of 3 other hypnotherapists I respect who may be able to help you" or "I don't specialize in that approach, but I find clients can get equally great results with XYZ." Again, WHY you don't do a certain thing (like PLR) is immaterial, frankly. I don't really need to know that it's against your religious beliefs, do I?

MY beliefs should be a hypnotherapist's business only in that they may give you a context that helps you understand how my mind works, or how I view the world. I wouldn't go to a hypnotherapist for religious counsel. Because presumably, if I'm having an issue with my religious beliefs, I'd be going to a practitioner/leader/counselor in whatever religion I happen to belong to.

I hope this makes sense.

Kathleen
Striving to be the pretty goodest hypnotherapy client on the Planet

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Permalink Reply by Lee Pelletier on December 1, 2009 at 7:08am

Kathleen:

This is a very helpful post. It rightly puts the focus where it belongs, on the client and his or her needs. You define the appropriate response clearly when you say "I don't specialize in that approach...." That is precisely what I do.

The point is that the client is coming to the hypnotist for an answer to the pain they are experiencing (Havens and Walters, Hypnotherapy Scripts). It is our job to guide them to resolution of that "pain". That pain can flow from where they are in their spiritual life. One thing, Kathleen, to consider. There are many religious leaders who are not very good at dealing with people. There is a tendency for people to generalize from their own experience and assume that others who follow their particular process will achieve their paticular results, and any failure to do so is a result of some deficiency of process. The truth is, of course, that there is a difference between people and that difference will be experienced in how change comes about.



Kathleen Hanover said:

Here's what I think, as a client, not a hypnotherapist:
If I come to you to help me improve the quality of my life through hypnotherapy, your religious beliefs (or lack thereof) should be invisible to me. They're none of my business, up to the point that they interfere with your ability to help me. If your beliefs limit your usefulness to me, then they do become my business, because I'm paying you to do a job.
For example, in Pete's case, I would never go to him for hypnotherapy. Based on how you express yourself, Pete, I think it's impossible for you to view me as a person who is even worthy of help, or possibly even view me as a person at all, given the fact that I'm not a Christian according to your definition. (For the record, I'm a secular humanist and a Pastafarian. Although the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a parody, I have found that Pastafarians tend to be happy, inclusive and caring people who like to dress like Pirates and who revere a great Fettucini Alfredo. What's not to like?)

If there's something you as a hypnotherapist don't care to do (for whatever reason), just say, "well, I don't specialize in that approach, but here are the names of 3 other hypnotherapists I respect who may be able to help you" or "I don't specialize in that approach, but I find clients can get equally great results with XYZ." Again, WHY you don't do a certain thing (like PLR) is immaterial, frankly. I don't really need to know that it's against your religious beliefs, do I?

MY beliefs should be a hypnotherapist's business only in that they may give you a context that helps you understand how my mind works, or how I view the world. I wouldn't go to a hypnotherapist for religious counsel. Because presumably, if I'm having an issue with my religious beliefs, I'd be going to a practitioner/leader/counselor in whatever religion I happen to belong to.

I hope this makes sense.

Kathleen
Striving to be the pretty goodest hypnotherapy client on the Planet

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Permalink Reply by Phoenix Fairchild on December 1, 2009 at 7:17am

Had to check back through this thread, to remind myself what it was about, and how it got to this point.

It started with a rational discussion of PLR, and it's ethics within a christian context.

Some people quoted verses from a modern version of the Christian Bible.

Somebody else pointed out the fact that the various versions of the Bible had been edited many times over many years, to fit in with the views otf the authorities at those times.

Somebody responded with:

The bible is 100% true and accurate and you are right to be concerned over PLR... The new age BS artists here will waffle on with their ignorance of biblical truth with the usual arrogance of those blinded by humanistic and demonic influence. To claim they know the bible has been edited and changed is simply egotistical lies, where on earth are the facts of this? Hypnosis is a phenomenon, but it is entirely natural and not at all conflicting with Christianity unless it is twisted and intertwined with new age BS like some try to do here. They speak with such conviction over matters to which they have no authority what so ever and wonder why truly spiritual ppl take offense to their blasphemy! Get you own house in order before you give others advise on how to achieve salvation you charlatans... There is but one GOD and one way to reach heaven and that is through CHRIST, there is no reincarnation nor is there righteousness in false doctrines, it is this arrogance which caused the fall and which still separates man from GOD...

Predictably, this rant offended some people, and it all went into a religeous debate from there on.

A moderator intervened by saying:

Please do not feed the fires of religious debate here. This is not the place for that. James asked an honest question about professional ethics and got some very helpful answers. He was not asking about his religion or the fate of his soul and there should be no more discussion of those topics.

some people chose to ignore this request, and carried on regardless.

Somebody quoted more references from 'The Bible'

Somebody reiterated that there are several versions of the bible.

somebody repsonded with insults:
You need to remove the plank from your own eye mate. Perhaps you’re not as clever as your arrogance suggests. Read the bible and pray more and chat a bit less opinion as if it were fact.. etc

some people got predictably further offended.

Somebody said:
your comments are wholly unacceptable, no matter what your religious beliefs it is about time you showed a bit of respect for other peoples views. Using terms like "The new age BS artists" is offensive and people would complain if people used terms like "Christian BS artists" using language like that brings you down to the level of people around the world who cause problems around the world.

You may have certain religious conviction and from you comments feel you are right and every one else is wrong. That is arrogance.

Somebody responded with:
Please keep the discussion about the discussion and don't belittle someone about their beliefs.

somebody pointed out the logical falacy in that one sided rebuke:
some people here feel free to refer to others as "new age BS artists"--yet when someone points out that the arrogance of such a comment, the second poster is told not to belittle someone's beliefs.

No one here is objecting to you being Christian. They're objecting to you being obnoxious. Curiously, some here have referred to that as simply being Christian.

somebody agreed with that.

Somebody added insult to injury, by attempting to reframe a valid comment about thier rude behaviour as an attack on thier religion::
Obnoxious and arrogant for believing in and following the word of GOD? And this from one who keeps the company of wiccans, voodoo or should I say hoo doo practitioners and other spawn of satan! Your comments have no effect on me. The world is given over to the one you follow just look at the evil in the world. To believe that this is heaven is not only sad but clear evidence that you have been deceived. And for one of you to think after making those comments that I would accept your friend request? No thanks.. Your insults and persecution will never sway my faith in the one True GOD and to answer your point, I replied to this initial thread from a Christian perspective because that is in keeping with the actual question! Where is you are maliciously deviating from that in order to espouse more of your, no I will not say new age BS, to be more candid and blunt, your satanic lies.. Have a great life I pity you when it’s all over... I will pray for you that your eyes will be opened GOD bless


Somebody spoke eloquently from the perspective of a client.

Somebody agreed with her.

No doubt given a few hours, sombody will attack her for expressing her opinion.

Have I missed out anything important?

I feel it would be great to get back to the point of the thread, or to take the religeous, arguments to somewhere more appropriate.

What chance do I see of that happening?

Not a lot.

Phoenix.

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Permalink Reply by Hugh Cole on December 1, 2009 at 7:18am

Don't really want to be redundant... But in view of Kathleen's very nice post explaining things from the client's side ... here are a few lines from my original post....

My two cents .. STAY OUT OF THE BIBLE.,, STAY AWAY FROM JUSTIFICATION ,,, STAY OUT OF YOUR OWN HEAD. A hypnotist must be able to adopt his client's core belief's.. work within them and cleanly jettison them after a session. Whether they are real or not... they are constructs the unconcious mind uses to talk with the concious mind and that's very real to your client.

I rest my case ..again

Hugh Cole
Striving to Help Kathleen to become the very Bestest Hypnotherapy Client on the Planet

Kathleen Hanover said:

Here's what I think, as a client, not a hypnotherapist:

If I come to you to help me improve the quality of my life through hypnotherapy, your religious beliefs (or lack thereof) should be invisible to me. They're none of my business, up to the point that they interfere with your ability to help me. If your beliefs limit your usefulness to me, then they do become my business, because I'm paying you to do a job.

For example, in Pete's case, I would never go to him for hypnotherapy. Based on how you express yourself, Pete, I think it's impossible for you to view me as a person who is even worthy of help, or possibly even view me as a person at all, given the fact that I'm not a Christian according to your definition. (For the record, I'm a secular humanist and a Pastafarian. Although the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a parody, I have found that Pastafarians tend to be happy, inclusive and caring people who like to dress like Pirates and who revere a great Fettucini Alfredo. What's not to like?)

If there's something you as a hypnotherapist don't care to do (for whatever reason), just say, "well, I don't specialize in that approach, but here are the names of 3 other hypnotherapists I respect who may be able to help you" or "I don't specialize in that approach, but I find clients can get equally great results with XYZ." Again, WHY you don't do a certain thing (like PLR) is immaterial, frankly. I don't really need to know that it's against your religious beliefs, do I?

MY beliefs should be a hypnotherapist's business only in that they may give you a context that helps you understand how my mind works, or how I view the world. I wouldn't go to a hypnotherapist for religious counsel. Because presumably, if I'm having an issue with my religious beliefs, I'd be going to a practitioner/leader/counselor in whatever religion I happen to belong to.

I hope this makes sense.

Kathleen
Striving to be the pretty goodest hypnotherapy client on the Planet

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Permalink Reply by James Hazlerig on December 1, 2009 at 7:46am

Lee--I had a chance to look at your survey, and I applaud you for inviting the opinions of those who seek God through paths other than your own. You are what is best in Christianity. (I hope you will take such words from a Pagan as the compliment they are meant to be. I was once told by a fundamentalist that I would make an excellent Christian--I took his words as the compliment he meant them to be.)

Peter--You said my comments have no effect on you, yet you certainly sound outraged by them. Please try to remember the Ten Commandments prohibit lying.

I have to confess that your comments have had a wonderful effect on me--I haven't laughed so hard all morning. Lest you be offended, I'm not merely laughing at you. I'm laughing at my younger self as well, because I sounded just like you once. :-) (Then again, I'm not sure why I'm worried about offending you, as my words have no effect on you, right?)

As for keeping company with "the spawn of Satan," someone very wise once said, "By their fruits, ye shall know them." A Wiccan friend of mine found that her mother was concerned about her choice of religion--until the mother also noticed that it was the Wiccans who were always there to help out her daughter in tough times.

A tongue that spits only vinegar is rarely attached to a sweet heart . . .

Peacefully,

James H

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Permalink Reply by Lee Pelletier on December 1, 2009 at 7:53am

Realistically Hugh, it is all about balance. The linchpin question that was originally asked by James, is "where is the moral or ethical line in introducing PLR to a client who may not be theologically inclined toward PLR." (My paraphrase, not Mr. Klingensmith's original words). Hugh is correct in suggesting that the Bible or other sacred writings be left out of the discussion until the client brings it up.

While I don't disagree with Hugh, the point remains that we as hypnotists adapt to our client, whether the issue calls for authoritarian/direct, indirect, Metaphor, EFT, or any of the myriad of other tools at our disposal. If your only approach is Authoritarian then there are clients you will be less able to serve. If your only tool is EFT, then you will help with some emotional issues, but still be limited. As we understand from NLP, in any given system, the entity most able to adapt is most likely to survive/thrive. As hypnotists we need to continuously broaden our skillset, even if we specialize. Why? Because the real constant in life is change and we have to be ready to adapt to that change.

Client centered hypnosis requires us to respect a client's belief system. If a client gives us a clear picture of what they believe (and on my intake form I directly ask if they follow any religious practices) we have a clear obligation to respect that belief system as professionals. Having said that, the client may be letting misunderstood beliefs get in the way of their growth and of overcoming their source of pain. That is why it is valuable to develop open and friendly relationships with members of various religious groups and their leadership. If a client presents with an issue that their belief system blocks healing from, i want to know the best process to follow for that client, so I will talk to a leader in that client's faith system, if avaialable. I have had religious leaders sit in on sessions with clients, at the client's request.

Phoenix, as I have said in other posts, as humans our logic is often overruled by emotions. If there is anything to which we are likely to respond both emotionally and negatively it is being told "you are wrong." Sometimes we do better at masking our feelings at hearing that than others, but it is normal that being told we are wrong evokes a negative or adverse emotional response. I have been learning (not having attained this yet) to wait, when I react negatively, before I let the response be experienced by others. I want to measure my words and ask myself what my listener will be hearing and feeling. How will they see me after they read my words? Will they be drawn to what I find important, or led away?

Responses are, as you say Phoenix, predictable. You will find somewhat emotional responses elsewhere on hypnothoughts, even expressed by leaders who have earned the profession's respect. As you see posts with lots of responses, you will find a substantial portion of them have some emotional responses in the set. Those responses have nothing to do with religion. I say that, not to defend those of religious faith who respond strongly, if unwisely; but to say that when we believe or hold to something we tend to hold it as much by emotion as by logic.

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