Past Life Reggression V.S. The Bible

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Permalink Reply by Phoenix Fairchild on December 1, 2009 at 7:17am

Had to check back through this thread, to remind myself what it was about, and how it got to this point.

It started with a rational discussion of PLR, and it's ethics within a christian context.

Some people quoted verses from a modern version of the Christian Bible.

Somebody else pointed out the fact that the various versions of the Bible had been edited many times over many years, to fit in with the views otf the authorities at those times.

Somebody responded with:

The bible is 100% true and accurate and you are right to be concerned over PLR... The new age BS artists here will waffle on with their ignorance of biblical truth with the usual arrogance of those blinded by humanistic and demonic influence. To claim they know the bible has been edited and changed is simply egotistical lies, where on earth are the facts of this? Hypnosis is a phenomenon, but it is entirely natural and not at all conflicting with Christianity unless it is twisted and intertwined with new age BS like some try to do here. They speak with such conviction over matters to which they have no authority what so ever and wonder why truly spiritual ppl take offense to their blasphemy! Get you own house in order before you give others advise on how to achieve salvation you charlatans... There is but one GOD and one way to reach heaven and that is through CHRIST, there is no reincarnation nor is there righteousness in false doctrines, it is this arrogance which caused the fall and which still separates man from GOD...

Predictably, this rant offended some people, and it all went into a religeous debate from there on.

A moderator intervened by saying:

Please do not feed the fires of religious debate here. This is not the place for that. James asked an honest question about professional ethics and got some very helpful answers. He was not asking about his religion or the fate of his soul and there should be no more discussion of those topics.

some people chose to ignore this request, and carried on regardless.

Somebody quoted more references from 'The Bible'

Somebody reiterated that there are several versions of the bible.

somebody repsonded with insults:
You need to remove the plank from your own eye mate. Perhaps you’re not as clever as your arrogance suggests. Read the bible and pray more and chat a bit less opinion as if it were fact.. etc

some people got predictably further offended.

Somebody said:
your comments are wholly unacceptable, no matter what your religious beliefs it is about time you showed a bit of respect for other peoples views. Using terms like "The new age BS artists" is offensive and people would complain if people used terms like "Christian BS artists" using language like that brings you down to the level of people around the world who cause problems around the world.

You may have certain religious conviction and from you comments feel you are right and every one else is wrong. That is arrogance.

Somebody responded with:
Please keep the discussion about the discussion and don't belittle someone about their beliefs.

somebody pointed out the logical falacy in that one sided rebuke:
some people here feel free to refer to others as "new age BS artists"--yet when someone points out that the arrogance of such a comment, the second poster is told not to belittle someone's beliefs.

No one here is objecting to you being Christian. They're objecting to you being obnoxious. Curiously, some here have referred to that as simply being Christian.

somebody agreed with that.

Somebody added insult to injury, by attempting to reframe a valid comment about thier rude behaviour as an attack on thier religion::
Obnoxious and arrogant for believing in and following the word of GOD? And this from one who keeps the company of wiccans, voodoo or should I say hoo doo practitioners and other spawn of satan! Your comments have no effect on me. The world is given over to the one you follow just look at the evil in the world. To believe that this is heaven is not only sad but clear evidence that you have been deceived. And for one of you to think after making those comments that I would accept your friend request? No thanks.. Your insults and persecution will never sway my faith in the one True GOD and to answer your point, I replied to this initial thread from a Christian perspective because that is in keeping with the actual question! Where is you are maliciously deviating from that in order to espouse more of your, no I will not say new age BS, to be more candid and blunt, your satanic lies.. Have a great life I pity you when it’s all over... I will pray for you that your eyes will be opened GOD bless


Somebody spoke eloquently from the perspective of a client.

Somebody agreed with her.

No doubt given a few hours, sombody will attack her for expressing her opinion.

Have I missed out anything important?

I feel it would be great to get back to the point of the thread, or to take the religeous, arguments to somewhere more appropriate.

What chance do I see of that happening?

Not a lot.

Phoenix.

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Permalink Reply by Hugh Cole on December 1, 2009 at 7:18am

Don't really want to be redundant... But in view of Kathleen's very nice post explaining things from the client's side ... here are a few lines from my original post....

My two cents .. STAY OUT OF THE BIBLE.,, STAY AWAY FROM JUSTIFICATION ,,, STAY OUT OF YOUR OWN HEAD. A hypnotist must be able to adopt his client's core belief's.. work within them and cleanly jettison them after a session. Whether they are real or not... they are constructs the unconcious mind uses to talk with the concious mind and that's very real to your client.

I rest my case ..again

Hugh Cole
Striving to Help Kathleen to become the very Bestest Hypnotherapy Client on the Planet

Kathleen Hanover said:

Here's what I think, as a client, not a hypnotherapist:

If I come to you to help me improve the quality of my life through hypnotherapy, your religious beliefs (or lack thereof) should be invisible to me. They're none of my business, up to the point that they interfere with your ability to help me. If your beliefs limit your usefulness to me, then they do become my business, because I'm paying you to do a job.

For example, in Pete's case, I would never go to him for hypnotherapy. Based on how you express yourself, Pete, I think it's impossible for you to view me as a person who is even worthy of help, or possibly even view me as a person at all, given the fact that I'm not a Christian according to your definition. (For the record, I'm a secular humanist and a Pastafarian. Although the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a parody, I have found that Pastafarians tend to be happy, inclusive and caring people who like to dress like Pirates and who revere a great Fettucini Alfredo. What's not to like?)

If there's something you as a hypnotherapist don't care to do (for whatever reason), just say, "well, I don't specialize in that approach, but here are the names of 3 other hypnotherapists I respect who may be able to help you" or "I don't specialize in that approach, but I find clients can get equally great results with XYZ." Again, WHY you don't do a certain thing (like PLR) is immaterial, frankly. I don't really need to know that it's against your religious beliefs, do I?

MY beliefs should be a hypnotherapist's business only in that they may give you a context that helps you understand how my mind works, or how I view the world. I wouldn't go to a hypnotherapist for religious counsel. Because presumably, if I'm having an issue with my religious beliefs, I'd be going to a practitioner/leader/counselor in whatever religion I happen to belong to.

I hope this makes sense.

Kathleen
Striving to be the pretty goodest hypnotherapy client on the Planet

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Permalink Reply by James Hazlerig on December 1, 2009 at 7:46am

Lee--I had a chance to look at your survey, and I applaud you for inviting the opinions of those who seek God through paths other than your own. You are what is best in Christianity. (I hope you will take such words from a Pagan as the compliment they are meant to be. I was once told by a fundamentalist that I would make an excellent Christian--I took his words as the compliment he meant them to be.)

Peter--You said my comments have no effect on you, yet you certainly sound outraged by them. Please try to remember the Ten Commandments prohibit lying.

I have to confess that your comments have had a wonderful effect on me--I haven't laughed so hard all morning. Lest you be offended, I'm not merely laughing at you. I'm laughing at my younger self as well, because I sounded just like you once. :-) (Then again, I'm not sure why I'm worried about offending you, as my words have no effect on you, right?)

As for keeping company with "the spawn of Satan," someone very wise once said, "By their fruits, ye shall know them." A Wiccan friend of mine found that her mother was concerned about her choice of religion--until the mother also noticed that it was the Wiccans who were always there to help out her daughter in tough times.

A tongue that spits only vinegar is rarely attached to a sweet heart . . .

Peacefully,

James H

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Permalink Reply by Lee Pelletier on December 1, 2009 at 7:53am

Realistically Hugh, it is all about balance. The linchpin question that was originally asked by James, is "where is the moral or ethical line in introducing PLR to a client who may not be theologically inclined toward PLR." (My paraphrase, not Mr. Klingensmith's original words). Hugh is correct in suggesting that the Bible or other sacred writings be left out of the discussion until the client brings it up.

While I don't disagree with Hugh, the point remains that we as hypnotists adapt to our client, whether the issue calls for authoritarian/direct, indirect, Metaphor, EFT, or any of the myriad of other tools at our disposal. If your only approach is Authoritarian then there are clients you will be less able to serve. If your only tool is EFT, then you will help with some emotional issues, but still be limited. As we understand from NLP, in any given system, the entity most able to adapt is most likely to survive/thrive. As hypnotists we need to continuously broaden our skillset, even if we specialize. Why? Because the real constant in life is change and we have to be ready to adapt to that change.

Client centered hypnosis requires us to respect a client's belief system. If a client gives us a clear picture of what they believe (and on my intake form I directly ask if they follow any religious practices) we have a clear obligation to respect that belief system as professionals. Having said that, the client may be letting misunderstood beliefs get in the way of their growth and of overcoming their source of pain. That is why it is valuable to develop open and friendly relationships with members of various religious groups and their leadership. If a client presents with an issue that their belief system blocks healing from, i want to know the best process to follow for that client, so I will talk to a leader in that client's faith system, if avaialable. I have had religious leaders sit in on sessions with clients, at the client's request.

Phoenix, as I have said in other posts, as humans our logic is often overruled by emotions. If there is anything to which we are likely to respond both emotionally and negatively it is being told "you are wrong." Sometimes we do better at masking our feelings at hearing that than others, but it is normal that being told we are wrong evokes a negative or adverse emotional response. I have been learning (not having attained this yet) to wait, when I react negatively, before I let the response be experienced by others. I want to measure my words and ask myself what my listener will be hearing and feeling. How will they see me after they read my words? Will they be drawn to what I find important, or led away?

Responses are, as you say Phoenix, predictable. You will find somewhat emotional responses elsewhere on hypnothoughts, even expressed by leaders who have earned the profession's respect. As you see posts with lots of responses, you will find a substantial portion of them have some emotional responses in the set. Those responses have nothing to do with religion. I say that, not to defend those of religious faith who respond strongly, if unwisely; but to say that when we believe or hold to something we tend to hold it as much by emotion as by logic.

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Permalink Reply by Kelley Woods on December 1, 2009 at 8:04am

Lee and James K. most probably have a much higher percentage of clients whose issues involve their religious beliefs than I, and by that, I am not inferring that these beliefs cause the issues.

This discussion has made me consider that fact and realize that a significant number of my clients have been persons who have NO spiritual belief system. This may be just one of the reasons they have arrived at the point of desperation and at my office door.

Just musing...Kelley

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Permalink Reply by Lee Pelletier on December 1, 2009 at 8:30am

Kelly, I haven't tracked the percentages, but overall religion plays a small role in my practice. There is a reason why your thought that those with no personal spiritual belief system will sometimes have issues surrounding purpose and meaning. I have known many people with no belief system who were clear in terms of sense of purpose and meaning, so I am not suggesting a 1:1 correlation.

A belief system, for many people, provides a foundation or an anchor point that helps them find stability. At the same time, a lot of people who have belief systems still find themselves adrift. Basically, the bottom line issue is that regardless of our belief systems we have to help our clients in making choices wisely. Wisdom is shown by making good choices. We learn wisdom by learning from our unfortunate choices. That comes from understanding another principle of NLP, "there is no failure, only feedback."

By the way, positive feedback becomes very reinforcing. So much so that partial reinforcement is a very strong force in the development of habits and behaviors. Thus, if a particular approach to our hynpotic work is effective for certain clients, it is easy to "generalize" the part to the whole. We all know, from NLP about "Generalize, Distort and Delete". As you read the discussions on Hynothoughts you will see a great deal of that. I was guided away from over generalizing by what the teacher said in my first sales training experience in 1970 -- when as a guide against generalizing the leader said "All Indians walk in a single file, at least the one I saw did." That thought from Jeffrey Timmons and his team has helped me a lot through the years.

Kelly, I know a lot of what I said has nothing to do with your comment, but it seemed to fit on generalizing. From our prior interactions (anyone who reads your posts will be impressed with your breadth and depth of knowledge, and your thoughtfulness) I know that you adapt well to your clients. I do agree with you that the absence of a belief system, which I call an anchor or foundation, is a factor worth considering. I look forward to the day when clients come to our doors well before desperation sets in. It will be nice when their first words are something other than "I have tried everything else...."

Kelley Woods said:

Lee and James K. most probably have a much higher percentage of clients whose issues involve their religious beliefs than I, and by that, I am not inferring that these beliefs cause the issues.
This discussion has made me consider that fact and realize that a significant number of my clients have been persons who have NO spiritual belief system. This may be just one of the reasons they have arrived at the point of desperation and at my office door.
Just musing...Kelley

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Permalink Reply by Doreen Cohanim C.Ht on December 1, 2009 at 11:27am

Hello Phoenix,
I read your post and thank you for posting it the way you did, and to be honest this discussion is getting out of proportion and sadly it's not promoting hypnotherapy in any way and shape...

All I remember saying this is haven, trying to get some smiles and sense of humor but Instead I got a prayer which I did welcome any ways.

In my opinion we all need to look at ourselves and take one step back from our "ego", and read what Phoenix pointed out, and see how childish we all sound, yes that includes myself.

With all respect, lets be more compassionate and respectful to all here, the world is reading this discussions as well, and what do you think It tels them about us being a role model?

Just my two cents.

Love Doreen Cohanim C.Ht
www.HypnoCruise.comI

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Permalink Reply by Lee Pelletier on December 1, 2009 at 11:49am

You make a good point Doreen. Your posts are thoughtful and uplifting.

As we look toward advancing the profession, you are right that we can best accomplish that by helping one another be better. No matter who we are, we have room to grow as professionals.

I think there is something worth noting in the variety of responses. I cannot help but wonder about the degree to which our attitudes, as expressed in the posts we make on various discussion groups and this or that forum are expressive of how we are with clients as well. It is my experience that as we take things personally or make assumptions as some have on these posts (and Doreen, you have kept the focus on the topic, while at times I have gotten lost in theology), that they are likely to have similar reactions to clients. Even if we think our reactions are well hidden, we have been learning, in our field, that the internal representation we maintain of our client is experienced by them as we work with them.

Doreen Cohanim C.Ht said:

Hello Phoenix,
I read your post and thank you for posting it the way you did, and to be honest this discussion is getting out of proportion and sadly it's not promoting hypnotherapy in any way and shape...

All I remember saying this is haven, trying to get some smiles and sense of humor but Instead I got a prayer which I did welcome any ways.

In my opinion we all need to look at ourselves and take one step back from our "ego", and read what Phoenix pointed out, and see how childish we all sound, yes that includes myself.

With all respect, lets be more compassionate and respectful to all here, the world is reading this discussions as well, and what do you think It tels them about us being a role model?

Just my two cents.

Love Doreen Cohanim C.Ht
www.HypnoCruise.comI

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Permalink Reply by James Hazlerig on December 1, 2009 at 12:11pm

Doreen and Phoenix--

You're right. It's not very mature of me to bait Peter as I have, and I appreciate both of you reminding us to refocus our efforts for good. I considered a number of other avenues of attack, and then realized that my time was better spent promoting my next workshop!

I have to say that I've come away from this discussion with huge respect for Lee and the organization he represents. It's always a pleasure to meet a true Christian.

Take care, all,

James

Doreen Cohanim C.Ht said:

Hello Phoenix,
I read your post and thank you for posting it the way you did, and to be honest this discussion is getting out of proportion and sadly it's not promoting hypnotherapy in any way and shape...

All I remember saying this is haven, trying to get some smiles and sense of humor but Instead I got a prayer which I did welcome any ways.

In my opinion we all need to look at ourselves and take one step back from our "ego", and read what Phoenix pointed out, and see how childish we all sound, yes that includes myself.

With all respect, lets be more compassionate and respectful to all here, the world is reading this discussions as well, and what do you think It tels them about us being a role model?

Just my two cents.

Love Doreen Cohanim C.Ht
www.HypnoCruise.comI

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Permalink Reply by Kelley Woods on December 1, 2009 at 1:26pm

Thank you for the kind words, Lee. I appreciate it, and I also thank you for the reminder to refrain from generalizing. It's on that list of "to-do's" in my hypno-book, also!

Lee Pelletier said:

Kelly, I haven't tracked the percentages, but overall religion plays a small role in my practice. There is a reason why your thought that those with no personal spiritual belief system will sometimes have issues surrounding purpose and meaning. I have known many people with no belief system who were clear in terms of sense of purpose and meaning, so I am not suggesting a 1:1 correlation.

A belief system, for many people, provides a foundation or an anchor point that helps them find stability. At the same time, a lot of people who have belief systems still find themselves adrift. Basically, the bottom line issue is that regardless of our belief systems we have to help our clients in making choices wisely. Wisdom is shown by making good choices. We learn wisdom by learning from our unfortunate choices. That comes from understanding another principle of NLP, "there is no failure, only feedback."

By the way, positive feedback becomes very reinforcing. So much so that partial reinforcement is a very strong force in the development of habits and behaviors. Thus, if a particular approach to our hynpotic work is effective for certain clients, it is easy to "generalize" the part to the whole. We all know, from NLP about "Generalize, Distort and Delete". As you read the discussions on Hynothoughts you will see a great deal of that. I was guided away from over generalizing by what the teacher said in my first sales training experience in 1970 -- when as a guide against generalizing the leader said "All Indians walk in a single file, at least the one I saw did." That thought from Jeffrey Timmons and his team has helped me a lot through the years.

Kelly, I know a lot of what I said has nothing to do with your comment, but it seemed to fit on generalizing. From our prior interactions (anyone who reads your posts will be impressed with your breadth and depth of knowledge, and your thoughtfulness) I know that you adapt well to your clients. I do agree with you that the absence of a belief system, which I call an anchor or foundation, is a factor worth considering. I look forward to the day when clients come to our doors well before desperation sets in. It will be nice when their first words are something other than "I have tried everything else...."

Kelley Woods said:

Lee and James K. most probably have a much higher percentage of clients whose issues involve their religious beliefs than I, and by that, I am not inferring that these beliefs cause the issues.
This discussion has made me consider that fact and realize that a significant number of my clients have been persons who have NO spiritual belief system. This may be just one of the reasons they have arrived at the point of desperation and at my office door.
Just musing...Kelley

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Permalink Reply by Hugh Cole on December 1, 2009 at 3:53pm

Everyone believes in something, even when you believe in nothing... Nothing is something to believe in. So your core beliefs make up your personality... your "who I am". Can core beliefs change over time ... are they malleable to some extent? If I read James correctly his younger self was running the "fundementalist Christian trance package" while his older self rebooted him with the " Wiccian deluxe trance package" with a few widgets thrown in. Is that package likely to change if he has a life changing event like falling in Love with a devout Buddist? I would be embarrassed to tell you how many life Philosophies I have held before accepting the deeply and sincerely held religious beliefs that make me tick now. The point is that the whole ball of religious-ethics questions is a slowly evolving malleable moving target. The is a part of the essence of who you are. The essence of Humanity is growth and change. Religious views really only represent a filter through which your core self views and experiences life.
I tend to shy away from processes that espouse a religious viewpoint because they may be a less than perfect fit for the mental model or metaphor I am using with a subject. Rather I prefer to use "human structure" models such as mind body spirit. ... connection to universal energy models., . Soul healing, etc. That gives them something to play with that they can "fit" into thier world view. I also tend to use "content-free" models, so I am teaching processes to deal with memories as physical things. I don't see a lot of use for the clients experiences in Sherwood Forest as Maid Marion, rather I am intersted in the feelings and emotions that unconcious mind is representing as belonging to Maid Marion and I can get at them a bunch of differant ways than tramping through Sherwood Forest. So if it is my choice .. I shy away from PLR as a healing modality There are other tools that will get the same info without the obvious less than productive baggage.
If a client comes in and is curious about it.. Yes I will work with them... Why .. Because for some reason they want to get the information out that way. I have no trouble being the scribe. Do I care if it's real or if it's a fantasy ..NO because there is truth in every fantasy and the unconcious is willing to put it out there for the good of the client.
So I say again ... KEEP YOUR OWN RELIGIOUS BELIEFS OUT OF IT. .. STAY OUT OF YOUR OWN HEAD. It is not your job to make the whole world Christian or Muslim or Buddist or Jewish. Countries work hard at doing that now and still can't get it done. It is your job to make the world a better place to live in by helping one Christian or Jewish or Wiccian or Muslim client at a time.

Namaste
Hugh Cole
The Pretty Goodest Hypnotist on the Planet

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Permalink Reply by James Hazlerig on December 1, 2009 at 8:39pm

Hugh,

I searched long and hard to find the Wiccan deluxe platform. The fundie Christian program kept crashing, as the architecture was extremely rigid. I went through quite a period of searching for a satisfying operating system, but none fit the bill until I found Wicca 2.0. Part of what I like about the Wiccan platform is that it's highly customizable and the software is compatible with a number of other operating systems, including Buddhism. So I'm not too worried about having to ditch it if I fall in love with a Buddhist. :-) (Curiously, it seems that I only fall in love with Pagan chicks. This is not on purpose, I swear!)

But like you, I checked out a lot of different philosophies before arriving at the deeply and sincerely held religious beliefs I have now. (Isn't it interesting that we have sincere religious beliefs, while others have trances?) I don't think expoloring different philosophies is anything to be embarrassed about. What I find shameful is blind acceptance of whatever faith one is born into--or the insistence that one knows the absolute Truth.

Take care,

James

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