subliminal messages

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Permalink Reply by Tranzkey on May 4, 2009 at 3:52pm

The CDs are bogus.

There are all kinds of ways to very softly and gently use NLP, hypnosis, etc., to help a person, but I am pretty sure that it ain't the fool selling the CD.

Is you are fascinated to have a recording, first read the wikkipedia about Emile Coue, and how the people enjoyed the progress from his affirmations, and then buy the CD that sounds most like him...

Subliminal is snake oil.

Affirmations are not.

Hope this helps.

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Permalink Reply by Fable Goodman on May 4, 2009 at 4:53pm

Yep I agree with Conrad,

I have used the same technique, but I record using Audacity (which is also free to download).

Part of the problem is getting the level right on the subliminal track. Just below the threshold of conscious hearing, but masked by the other tracks, whether they be music, natural sounds, verbal induction and suggestions.

Too quiet, and it basicly is not heard, and will not have any effect. a fraction too much and it becomes audible, and therfore no longer subliminal.

I made one about twenty five years ago with the sound of waves breaking gently on the shore. (using an old cassette recorder. I listened to it a couple of times and was satisfied with the levels. when I gave it to a client, she came back a few weeks later, and repeated word for word what was on the tape. she said that at first it was just the sound of the sea... but after listening a few times she picked out thge odd word here and there. then gradually heard more and more each time, until she could hear my voice as plain as day.

I thought it was her imagination. But I then listened to it several times, and sure enough I started to hear it very clearly.

Now how well subliminals work is very much still open for debate. There is not as far as I know a great deal of evidence to show that they work that well, by themselves. But if the induction and audible suggestions suggest that the subliminals will work, then they will.

A more pertinant question for me is, why use subliminals?

If a client has requested, and is open and ready for a particular change, and you have suggestions that would work. why not give those suggestions in the traditional way, which has been shown to be more effective.

So these days, I would not use subliminals alone, but as part of a whole process that involved an audible track (or two), some background music, and some subliminals.

However my prefered approach is to use 'advanced subliminal hypnosis'.
During the session with a client, I have some very relaxing background music playing in the background. It is on repeat, and when the client comes in, it is so quiet, that they don't even notice it playing. During the actual hyposis part of the session, I gradually turn it up a little (using the remote control) this is done subtly so it is a while before they register that it is playing.

Now all that is happened since they arrived , particulary the hypnotic session is 'associated' with that music. (anchored). And I give suggestions that when they hear that music it will reinforce all the work we have done while we have been together.

I make them a CD with two tracks, the first one a verbal reinforcement and reiteration of suggestions, with the same music again playing in the background.

The second track, simply has the music.

I tell them that they can use track one, each day when they make the time sit down close their eyes and go back into hypnosis. it will then go on to track two, which they may want to just carry on relaxing to. or they can listen to track two separately either sitting or lying down or whilst doing other things, and it will be reinforcing things at an unconscious level. Some people like to play track to in bed, and drift off to sleep half way through. (I don't recommend playing it all night on repeat)

A little bit like a homeopathic remedy, where if you analysed it you would find there is nothing there but water. But the water has a memory. If you analysed track two you would find no evidence of suggestions. But the memory of suggetions are there.

How well does it work? well who knows. I certainly couldn't produce any clear evidence. My clients seem to find it a very useful way to work. So I am happy with the technique.

Feel free to give it a go.

I hope this makes sense, and is of some use to you.

Love and hugs

Fable

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Permalink Reply by Thal on May 4, 2009 at 7:14pm

I would pretty much agree with all that Fable, Conrad and Ed have said.

By was of contribution I add these points.

First, the term Subliminal is a bit of an oxymoron. Technically, the term means Sub (below) the Limin (limit or boundary). The meaning is something that is beneath the boundary or limit of perception. Which means you shouldn't be able to perceive it at all! If you can perceive it then it IS NOT subliminal!

LOL So tell me what is wrong with this subliminal picture? ---> [. . .]

Next. This comes from neurophysiology. The normal functioning nervous system is function to perceive CHANGES in stimuli. Lets take a sound for example, although the principle applies to all 5 senses.

When the ear first detects a sound, the conscious and subconscious minds do an instant evaluation. The subconscious search around for any prior instances in memory of the sound in question and delivers the impression "Heard This Before" or "New Sound". The conscious mind then decides whether this sound deserves continued monitoring or can safely be ignored.

On the physiological level, which can be measured by certain electronic measuring devices, the repeated stimulus of a nerve cell will chemically fatigue the cell until it no longer detects the stimuli.

The take home on this is that the perception adapts to repetitive sounds. What was 'foreground' when first heard, becomes the background with adaption. Thus surf or water sounds, and other forms of 'white noise', new age music or whatever gradually fade into the background of attention.

Finally: In Fables example of the subliminal suggestions implanted in a background of surf noise, once one adapted to the surf noise, the quiet but changing sounds of the suggestions became foreground and were with repeated listening eventually picked up at the conscious level in its entirety.

A trickier form of subliminal is to have two speaking voices, on loud and one soft. The loud voice is always perceived as the foreground, and the softer voice is almost lost in the background. However, once you become aware of the presence of the 'subliminal' soft voice, then you can purposefully listen to it and pick it out separately.

Some recordings I have listened to using this technique, have the soft 'subliminal' voice to repeat, reinforce or at other times foreshadow, the directions given by the louder 'primary' voice. In my opinion, this is somewhat more effective than trying to sneak in a subliminal suggestion that is unrelated to foreground speaker or music etc.

For what it's worth.

THAL

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Permalink Reply by Blankfrost on May 4, 2009 at 8:35pm

wow these are some very good replyes i understand how thsi stuff works alot more now i was also wonder how visaul sublimnal messegers work as well i have seen derren brown use visual subliminal messeges on his show and they seem to work very well i guess that this stuff does work.

but some of the visual subliminal messages i have seen on old adverts don't seem to make sense like embedding a picture of a womans figure in a poster advert how does the embedded picture of the women help make sales? shouldn't they embedd something like BY NOW or something that seggests bying the product why would something like this work?

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Permalink Reply by Blankfrost on May 4, 2009 at 9:23pm

i undertstand now the picture of the women embedded in the poster would be a good idea which is why they use sexy people in adverts all the time now a days overtly. but im guessing that something like this isn't universal it would work well on men but wouldn't work on women.

i wonder what over things they can embed in the poster or tv ad that is universal if anyone knows?

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Permalink Reply by Blankfrost on May 4, 2009 at 10:42pm

are nlp embedded commands where you embed a message in a setance marking out the words by saying them louder or differently a form of subliminal message as well? because they are ofthen not refered to as subliminal messages but have the effect of a subliminal message in the sense that the person is not aware of the message or is it different?

if so are milton model embedded commands used in advertising and other things in that area im not sure i see it used much?

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Permalink Reply by Tranzkey on May 5, 2009 at 2:58pm

Great posts!

Wilson Bryan Key wrote a series of books about subliminal advertising in the 1970's.

Pop psychology, but his examples were very interesting.

In advertising for the printed page, it is not really invisible, it is just not what you notice at first. My best example would be a children's book, where you see a picture, and there is ALSO a hidden picture.

Perhaps not below the physical limits of perception, and more of a distraction.

For ears, it would probably be some mixture of a dominant sound, and a subtle one. that you can hear, WHEN YOU STOP TO LOOK FOR IT.

But I still am dubious about the recordings. For one thing, before you see a subliminal ad from a cigarette company, the shrink has used focus groups and such, to find statistical data, to justify running an ad that costs millions. They are true professionals, and not the average boob.

The people who sell these recordings ARE the average boob.

I agree that the topic is really interesting, but to help a person, I am sticking to the less speculative stuff...

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Permalink Reply by Tranzkey on May 5, 2009 at 3:46pm

I was looking at the scowl.

What was the OTHER picture? ;)

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Permalink Reply by Tranzkey on May 5, 2009 at 3:57pm

Maybe peripheral is the more accurate word...

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Permalink Reply by Tranzkey on May 5, 2009 at 5:26pm

Thank you for the wonderful discourse.

To return to the original question, I still think that the person selling such recordings is a clueless boob, promising miracles, without research, and knowing less than the two of us do.

so to me, it is still snakeoil..

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Permalink Reply by Tranzkey on May 5, 2009 at 7:13pm

I am not saying for a person to quit being curious.

What you describe is good.

I just don't believe that I would want to buy CD as a magical wand at the magical wand store.

And then we were playing with the thought.

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Permalink Reply by Joshua Johnston on May 6, 2009 at 6:03am

I've always thought that the "subliminal" which results in completely inaudible/invisible content has no effect and has been proven to be ineffective. I can't remember any studies or reports on that, though, so I could be misremembering.

The studies with the flashing of pictures or words and whatnot at high rates of speed, iirc from my cognitive psychology class, were simply faster than conscious recognition could happen, but not faster than the eye could perceive. And it has a priming effect, similar to the more recent studies with hot or cold coffee influencing a person's later perception of a hypothetical person's personality (http://www.colorado.edu/news/r/3ad6704ec1ce8994302ae06172e5dee7.html).

From what I've read and heard and all that good stuff, what has been proven to work is the more "peripheral" stuff, because it primes and does have an effect. What hasn't been proven to work is the completely unperceivable. If you can't perceive it, your unconscious can't be affected by it.

The drawback, as has already been mentioned, is that it *is* perceivable. Even if it's only just barely audible, it's still audible, which means that there's the chance they'll hear it consciously and it'll get filtered. That's why I like Tom Nicoli's old approach (he may still be doing it, but in a teleseminar, he mentioned it as something he "used to" do): in your hypnosis audio, loop barely audible suggestions in the background.

The main part of the hypnosis audio both absorbs their attention and masks the subliminal part, giving it the most opportunity to go to work.

Conrad, I couldn't see any writing on McCain's forehead, even with the key picture there. A bit disturbing if it actually was there ... ;)

Joshua

PS. This thread is reminding me some of my public speaking class ages ago, when I did an informational speech on subliminal advertising after reading the book Subliminal Seduction. "Imagine reading a magazine while relaxing and chilling out and coming across an ad for vodka. While looking at the picture, you suddenly see a sexy woman in the bottle. Startled, you look again and it's gone." Something like that was my opening for the speech, lol.

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