Talking Point: Instant Inductions and Modern Hypnotic Practice - Gil Boyne in Budapest

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Permalink Reply by Saul Rosenfeld on November 23, 2009 at 8:31am

Hugh,

Are you saying that rather than lamenting the cold hard fact that hypnosis has been a pitiful case study of LOST POTENTIAL for more than two centuries (because the public has a totally misguided perception of the phenomenon from constant exposure to the "now I have you in my Power!!" image deliberately fostered by public exhibitions of authoritarian tactics), that I should simply "play the ball where it lies" and try to convince people ONE by ONE on a personal level instead of attempting to expose this terrible injustice in a fact-filled book designed to reach a large number of people at the same time?
If so, then I can only say that trying to counter these universal misconceptions your way (one by one) would literally take FOREVER.

What's more, I really couldn't care LESS that some people "actually get a bit of a rush" by highly charged ultra authoritarian stage exhibitions (with or without the often-obligatory "cluck like a chicken!" routine). What I DO care about, and passionately so, is trying to make people realize that the ENORMOUS potential for HEALING that hypnosis has should FAR outweigh its ability to provide cheap AMUSEMENT in a "stage" exhibition for the purpose of "entertainment".

"Play the ball where it lies"? Not if I can help it...!!!

Saul

Hugh Cole said:

Why is it that some people look at the "Now I have you in my power and your gonna cluck like a chicken" thing and wring thier hands and rip thier clothes, throw dust on thier heads and lament the terrible image people have of evil bug eyed hypnotists and begin a personal vendetta to stamp out such extremely basic parts to human nature (along with the evil bug eyed hypnotists)? ... instead of just simply playing the ball where it lies.
Others listen to that stuff and laugh ... say "that's not how it works .... Here let me show you" ... and walk off with a new client. Could it be that the world views are ... differant .... Core values ... Differant. I have often said that a good hypnotist is like a good poker player.. he plays the cards he is dealt .. Not the cards he wishes he was dealt. Let me point something out to you... Media folk have made those movies for a long long time. Svengali is not an unknown book It's actually pretty widly read in it's time. and even now WHY Nobody was forcing folks to watch those movies or read the books. They did that because they WANTED to. There is a very fundemental part of human nature that is fascinated by that behavior ..by the possibility they don't have to be completely responsible for thier own behavior. More than you might imagine actually get a bit of a rush at that thought. People only "fear" what they believe to "be possible". Who was that that taught me that "all hynosis is Self Hypnosis"? Ok so I had someone working with me a while back on a public relations thing I was doing. Great lady. She took great pains to tell me why I shouldn't be using swinging watches and that sorta stuff in my campaign. She told me that as a client it would bring up images of Power Driven bug eyed hypnotists etc etc. She knew that for a fact because that's what she used to believe. (The words cluck like a chicken even entered the conversation) Of course she had been through hypnotherapy, was very familiar with it and was even asking me about the possibility of "trading services". The obvious question.. What changed your mind?" Well ... The answer ... She met a very competent hypnotist on the left coast. He did the unthinkable and explained to her how it worked and even let her EXPERIENCE IT. danged if it didn't work.. and now she is a walking billboard for the possibilities of Hypnosis. Enough said for me.
Hugh Cole
The Pretty Goodest Hypnotist on the Planet

Permalink Reply by Hugh Cole on November 23, 2009 at 9:19am

I like this discussion because it it is filled with passionate professionals all with very good and sensible ways of doing things.

No Saul ... I am not suggessting that you do that ... i am suggesting that I will continue to do that, while you do whatever you feel you need to do to "to make people realize that the ENORMOUS potential for HEALING that hypnosis has". Thats a worthwhile goal and I applaud it. But Please don't assume that the reason they don't know that already has to do with Two centuries of tawdry stage shows and instant inductions. Perhaps they don't know it because they never experienced it.

I am also suggesting that Two Centuries of lost potential is just that .. Lost Potential. (Wouldn't life be great if Adolf Hitler was more like Gandi, and antibiotics were available before the bubonic plague) I teach my trance partners that the past is over ... the future is really the past that hasn't happened yet and all we have are these precious here and now moments to make a differance, Why waste them worrying about Lost potential? So .. I muddle through one life changing event at a time and I really don't think much about what othere may be doing to make hypnosis more widely accepted.

I am happy you are writing a book to expose the cheap and tawdry bug eyed stage hypnotists. and making the public happy about Hypnosis by bringing up all the worst examples you can think off. Let me know how that works out for you.
In the meantime I will do what I can to make life better for the folks around me.

Hugh Cole
The Pretty Goodest Hypnotist on the Planet.

Permalink Reply by GIL BOYNE on November 23, 2009 at 9:50am

Hello Saul, One of the most moving and inspiring yet pitiful characters in Literature is Don Quixote. A man who spends his life "Tilting at Windmills! ---because of his mania-----------Gil Boyne.

Permalink Reply by Fable Goodman on November 23, 2009 at 10:22am

Touche Gil!,


I am still very much enjoying this thread,
despite (predicatble) attempts to hijack it to promote a book.

P.S. My own latest book will be on sale soon...
be sure to watch this thread for more details..
I once had an email exchange with a world famous hypnotist,
who amongst other things...
said something nice about my book.

I have kept the emails to prove it.
Just in case anyone ever doubts that I am good writer.

pleese reed the buk what I rote.

LOve and humble hugs,

Fable

Permalink Reply by Saul Rosenfeld on November 23, 2009 at 11:05am

Hugh,

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

George Santayana, 1905


Rather than expressing doubt (with a touch of thinly-veiled sarcasm at the end no less!) about my contention that the terrible IMAGE surrounding hypnotism has been the DIRECT result of public exhibitions of highly authoritarian tactics, why don't you first at LEAST try reading those free (yes, FREE) chapters on my book's website before being so dismissive in a reflexive knee-jerk reaction to hearing something you don't like?

Saul

www.HistoryOfHypnotism.com





Hugh Cole said:

I like this discussion because it it is filled with passionate professionals all with very good and sensible ways of doing things.

No Saul ... I am not suggessting that you do that ... i am suggesting that I will continue to do that, while you do whatever you feel you need to do to "to make people realize that the ENORMOUS potential for HEALING that hypnosis has". Thats a worthwhile goal and I applaud it. But Please don't assume that the reason they don't know that already has to do with Two centuries of tawdry stage shows and instant inductions. Perhaps they don't know it because they never experienced it.

I am also suggesting that Two Centuries of lost potential is just that .. Lost Potential. (Wouldn't life be great if Adolf Hitler was more like Gandi, and antibiotics were available before the bubonic plague) I teach my trance partners that the past is over ... the future is really the past that hasn't happened yet and all we have are these precious here and now moments to make a differance, Why waste them worrying about Lost potential? So .. I muddle through one life changing event at a time and I really don't think much about what othere may be doing to make hypnosis more widely accepted.

I am happy you are writing a book to expose the cheap and tawdry bug eyed stage hypnotists. and making the public happy about Hypnosis by bringing up all the worst examples you can think off. Let me know how that works out for you.
In the meantime I will do what I can to make life better for the folks around me.

Hugh Cole
The Pretty Goodest Hypnotist on the Planet.

Permalink Reply by Saul Rosenfeld on November 23, 2009 at 11:13am

Hello Gil,

You are absolutely correct about that (LOL!); but I would regard it as a stupendous badge of HONOR to be remembered one day as having been a "moving and inspiring yet pitiful" character like Don Quixote.
After all, the guy (fictitious character though he was) ultimately achieved nothing less than IMMORTALITY...!!!
; - )
As always, with respect, admiration and fondness,

Saul





GIL BOYNE said:

Hello Saul, One of the most moving and inspiring yet pitiful characters in Literature is Don Quixote. A man who spends his life "Tilting at Windmills! ---because of his mania-----------Gil Boyne.

Permalink Reply by Saul Rosenfeld on November 23, 2009 at 7:25pm

Michael,

Could you please keep this thread alive rather than deleting it, as I feel that it deals with a very important subject matter that could (should!!) be of GREAT benefit to the members of this Forum. I'm fairly confident that a number of others probably feel the same way.
Thanks!

Saul



Michael Ellner said:

Dear Gil,

I respect and honor you and your achievements - period.

Michael Ellner

Dear HT.com Brothers and Sisters-
This is NOT a threat -- I will be starting another discussion on questioning the widely held belief that the mind/brain does not see or hear and process "negatives" in the not too distance future. =^..^=

Hint- Millions of NYers walk around in a wide range of very mild to extreme trances and seem to get "Don't Walk" without walking into traffic. Brain scan research suggests the brain acts on negative messages faster than on positive messages.

Meanwhile - I'm thinking it might be time to put this baby to bed and start another discussion -- I am going to keep this one open through Tuesday in case people who were off-line over the weekend want to respectfully share.

And I am going to start another discussion as soon as I post this reply.

Do You Want To Mainstream Your Practice and Can It Be Done Without Government Regulation or Compromising Our Effectiveness? I say Yes!

Please feel free to join me there-

Ciao for now-

Permalink Reply by Hugh Cole on November 23, 2009 at 9:26pm

Saul,
Micheal is not talking about deleting the thread. He actually cannot.do that. He is beginning another one to focus on the real issue he wanted to discuss. That I think is a marvelous idea because Micheal does have some important issues which may have gotten lost in the specificity of his referances to Gil. This Thread is Marvelous and despite some of the underlying clashes contains a wealth of great information and dialogue.
As you are fairly new to Hypnothoughts, let me also say that Hypnothoughts is a totally open forum for the free and unbiased expression of thoughts and ideas.about Hypnosis. Some discussions, like this one become heated because let's face it. We are ALL passionate about what we do and how we do it. ,,, and since what we do is NOT an exact science ... our thoughts and ideas and theories and observations are all qualatative and subjective, One of the great things about hypnothoughts is that ALL "camps" and ideas are welcome. without recrimination to share ideas. and to grow from them.
My reaction to you is strong, as is Gil's because let's face it both Gil and I see value in public demonstration hypnosis because we do it quite effectively. You are not the first person to come along with a blanket condemnation of all stage Hypnosis practices and you certainly won't be the last. Our reaction is strong because we have been here before and we know where this goes,and particularly here in the United States, you won't find much support for increased regulation and criminalization of "folks that don't do it your way". Regulatory spirals lead inward toward more restrictive practices, not outward toward better exposure of the profession, This is a "morality" discussion and they always end with the same question ... Whose morals are we going to use as the standard for measuring morality? I am certainly not volunteering mine and I really don't want to debate you on the question of why I don't want yours.
I applaud your decision to condense all your evidence into a clearly written tome that you can offer for sale to the general public.and your fellow Professionals and i am sure there will be a market for it. I just don't think that Gil or I or Fable for that matter would be part of it.
Since this is Micheals thread and he has made the decision to extricate himself from the less than harmonious elements of the discussion and begin anew on another track, I am going to respect that and join him over there.. Perhaps you could start another discussion on Stage Hypnosis and it's history and use it to plomb the depths of the support for your position here.

Namaste,

Hugh Cole
The Prety Goodest Hypnotist on the Planet

Permalink Reply by GIL BOYNE on November 24, 2009 at 1:39am

Fable said; pleese reed the buk what I rote

Hello Fable, You started my day with a great laugh. Thank you.---- Gil

Fable Goodman said:

Touche Gil!,


I am still very much enjoying this thread,
despite (predicatble) attempts to hijack it to promote a book.

P.S. My own latest book will be on sale soon...
be sure to watch this thread for more details..
I once had an email exchange with a world famous hypnotist,
who amongst other things...
said something nice about my book.

I have kept the emails to prove it.
Just in case anyone ever doubts that I am good writer. pleese reed the buk what I rote

.

LOve and humble hugs,

Fable

Permalink Reply by GIL BOYNE on November 24, 2009 at 2:11am

Hello Hugh, Forty-five years a Los Angeles tv magazine show filmed an interview and filmed part of my class. They asked for a demonstration of "instant induction" and I lined up (single file) ten class members and as I faced each one I shook their hand and said"SLEEP. Their first subject's knees buckled and he slumped to the floor. The other nine, all followed suit and it made wonderful tv drama. There was a small group of aspiring hypnotists that had regular meetings and when I arrived for the meeting, one of them, "You have set Hypnotism back fifty years with your stupid tv demonstration".I replied, "since that program aired, my phone hasn't stop ringing with people wanting appointments and to join self-hypnosis classes" Since this thread started several people have contacted me for details of my Master Class and two have already registered. Early in my career, I learned that print media advertising was expensive and ineffective (for me, in my market)
so I made a personal visit to EVERY tv and radio station with a 100 mile radius of Los Angeles. I gave them many photos and bio etc.Some program directors booked me immediately others called months or even years later. The point is; my material was in their reference files! Whether it was a major 50,000 watt tv. station or a small FM radio station, they produced results. Eventually, I was on national network shows like 20/20 and similar magazine shows. Now the www has made it easier if one is creative and can move away from what the majority thinks and says.
When I served in the US Navy in World War two, I was taught that' Taking risks is necessary to grow and develop a pattern of succes"---General Krulak, United States Marine Corps.
PS The hypnotist that made that surly remark has long since faded into the dust bin of obscurity.

Hugh Cole said:

Saul,
Micheal is not talking about deleting the thread. He actually cannot.do that. He is beginning another one to focus on the real issue he wanted to discuss. That I think is a marvelous idea because Micheal does have some important issues which may have gotten lost in the specificity of his referances to Gil. This Thread is Marvelous and despite some of the underlying clashes contains a wealth of great information and dialogue.
As you are fairly new to Hypnothoughts, let me also say that Hypnothoughts is a totally open forum for the free and unbiased expression of thoughts and ideas.about Hypnosis. Some discussions, like this one become heated because let's face it. We are ALL passionate about what we do and how we do it. ,,, and since what we do is NOT an exact science ... our thoughts and ideas and theories and observations are all qualatative and subjective, One of the great things about hypnothoughts is that ALL "camps" and ideas are welcome. without recrimination to share ideas. and to grow from them.
My reaction to you is strong, as is Gil's because let's face it both Gil and I see value in public demonstration hypnosis because we do it quite effectively. You are not the first person to come along with a blanket condemnation of all stage Hypnosis practices and you certainly won't be the last. Our reaction is strong because we have been here before and we know where this goes,and particularly here in the United States, you won't find much support for increased regulation and criminalization of "folks that don't do it your way". Regulatory spirals lead inward toward more restrictive practices, not outward toward better exposure of the profession, This is a "morality" discussion and they always end with the same question ... Whose morals are we going to use as the standard for measuring morality? I am certainly not volunteering mine and I really don't want to debate you on the question of why I don't want yours.
I applaud your decision to condense all your evidence into a clearly written tome that you can offer for sale to the general public.and your fellow Professionals and i am sure there will be a market for it. I just don't think that Gil or I or Fable for that matter would be part of it.
Since this is Micheals thread and he has made the decision to extricate himself from the less than harmonious elements of the discussion and begin anew on another track, I am going to respect that and join him over there.. Perhaps you could start another discussion on Stage Hypnosis and it's history and use it to plomb the depths of the support for your position here.

Namaste,

Hugh Cole
The Prety Goodest Hypnotist on the Planet

Permalink Reply by GIL BOYNE on November 24, 2009 at 4:40am

Hello Dave, An articulate and specific response to every element of the original post and a "spot on" explanation of why some hypnotists avoid the success that the words "hypnosis" and "Sleep" can generate.
I think of the great song from the Musical Play,"Chicago"---"Give 'em the ole Razzle Dazzle".
A bit of "Razzle Dazzle" goes a long way and is always helpful..

Dave Parke said:

Hmmm, so now we are questioning Gil Boyne's techniques. I don't have the years of experience that some of you have but here are my observations.


"Although, I recognize and deeply appreciate Gil Boyne's huge professional standing and contributions to the field, I am asking the questions below because I do not believe that the demonstrations that he shared with us reflect modern hypnotic practice and I wonder what other members of Hypnothoughts.com think about it."

I guess you'd have to define what "modern" practice is and if there's more value in it. Everybody on here may have a different concept of what "modern" practice comprises. Some may feel that a soft, maternal, non-authoritarian way is "modern" while you have people like John Cerbonne and Justin Tranz that are still creating instant shock inductions...so they must be modern too. If by modern you mean an emasculated non-directive non-paternal approach then no...Gil's techniques don't reflect modern practice. You'd have to convince me that "modern" practice has any benefit over its predecessor or predecessors. I just consider it part and parcel of the emasculation of society in general...that seems to be the new definition of "modern". Anything that is paternal, directive, or authoritarian must be atavistic and therefore bad.

1) Do you believe that jerking a standing client's neck and shouting sleep and then guiding him or her into your chair is representative of your hypnosis practice?

I like the wording on this. Do you believe that possibly doing physical harm while yelling at your client is representative of your practice...hmmm, NO. Now if you were to ask me if doing a rapid induction (which is what I see) was common in my practice then I'd have to say yes. I haven't had the opportunity to study with Mr. Boyne (yet) but I have trained with Richard Nongard, John Cerbonne, Brian David Phillips and Justin Tranz. I think the problem that most people have with rapid inductions is they are afraid of doing them. It takes a great deal of courage to do an induction that will possibly leave you looking like an ass if it doesn't work. I know, it took me a long time to overcome that fear myself. If you've ever seen somebody in a street fight or in combat freeze up you know the power of a rapid induction. It's the same effect.


"2) Do you believe that putting your hand in a volunteers or client's face as was done in both of Gil's demos is an effective way to promote our profession or practices?"

I believe that generating results is an effective way to promote our profession and practice. I have had as good or better results with people by using rapid inductions and directive instructions (also utilizing touch as a physical cue) than I ever did by sitting somebody down in a comfy chair (which I spent a lot of money for), taking them through PLR, and then using a non-directive approach. Perhaps your results are different but I have tried (and still use) both methods. For those who haven't tried rapid inductions or directive approaches perhaps it would be beneficial to add these to your repertoire or at least take them for a test drive.

"3) Are convincers like "eye lock" necessary or even helpful in modern hypnotic practice?"

In many (if not most) cases yes. I believe they are helpful in allowing the client to "experience" hypnosis. Otherwise you may wind up with a person who thinks they were very relaxed but nothing else. Again, I find that there is a certain fear that comes up when talking about convincers. We are once again left with a chance we could face "failure" if we don't know where to go from there. I know many hypnotherapists that are content to sit a person down, do PLR, give the suggestions and end the session with no risk to their personal or professional credibility. Instant inductions and convincers can be "scary" for some of us because of a lack in confidence or because of the possibility that they won't work.

As far as the directive, authoritarian approach I can say that just reading "Transforming Therapy" took my regressions to a whole new level. I believe that many people these days have an inability to take on a directive persona and therefore dismiss it and criticize it. It is a kinder and gentler world that is slowly sinking into chaos because people are afraid to take the reins. I think that one of the reasons that people question Gil's techniques is it is a defensive mechanism because they are unable or unwilling to model his approach. Although I'm completely perplexed as to how you could question Gil Boyne's techniques...they may not suit your style, personality, or beliefs but they are tried and true, regardless of your definition of "modern". I'm also a bit surprised that professional hypnotists/hypnotherapists aren't eager to include every possible tool in their box.

As one of my mentors, Hugh Cole, said, choose your mentors wisely. A man with almost half a century of success, hundreds of successful students, and an unrivaled passion and commitment to hypnosis would be an honored mentor of mine any day...regardless of what people considered "modern".

Dave

.

Permalink Reply by GIL BOYNE on November 24, 2009 at 5:33am

Hello Fable, Have you met the new graduate proudly waving his diploma for his two-day course?
He says; " Last week, I caint evan spell hypoterapriz, today I are one!

Fable said; pleese reed the buk what I rote

Hello Fable, You started my day with a great laugh. Thank you.---- Gil


Fable Goodman said:
Touche Gil!,

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