There is no such thing as "Self" Hypnosis

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jonathan Chase on February 8, 2010 at 5:33am

Not my argument Ricky. You are right of course. However if it don't quack, have a bill and feathers and a waterproof backside chances are it isn't a bloody duck. ;-) and I do say there is self suggestion but still content this isn't self hypnosis.

ricky strode said:

but there are things that are just as useful in doing these things that are not self-hypnosis, but rather an intentional induced trance for purpose by ones self. Your going to have to come up with alot better stuff than what you have if you want to make a name for yourself. Anyone that doesn't know much about hypnosis, or trance wouldn't know that, but most of us should. Experience in that state is the ultimate deciding factor nomatter what anyone say and just with like anything else, nothing is ever absolute.

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Permalink Reply by AJ on February 8, 2010 at 6:00am

Jonathan,

I introduced penned definitions from other authors in my prior post, not my thoughts on this matter. I shall now proceed, with a deeper understanding of what you are seeking to convey, and attempt to delineate precisely and succinctly what Hypnosis is and it is not from my point of view.

Brain activity is measured by frequencies. Examples follow: The phenomenon of hysteria is gamma level of EEG. The phenomenon of waking state is beta level of EEG. The phenomenon of trance is alpha level of EEG. The phenomenon of somnambulism is theta level of EEG. The phenomenon of sleep is delta level of EEG.

Mind is non-measurable. It exists in a realm beyond physical space. Its essence is indescribable energy, and it is invisible to our shared three-dimensional reality.

Hypnosis is the bypassing of an "active" (i.e. thinking , feeling or perceiving) brain in order to instill in ones mind "suggestions", i.e. thoughts, ideas or concepts. A light state of Hypnosis is achieved during the alpha state when the brain's activity is somewhat reduced. A deep state of Hypnosis is achieved during the theta state when the brain's activity is significantly reduced.

The degree of receptivity to hypnosis is not to be equated with suggestibility, rather it parallels the level of ones "hypnotizability". This is tempered (i.e. counterbalanced) by an emotional condition called fear.

All the best,

Dr. Regal
Atlanta, GA

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Permalink Reply by AJ on February 8, 2010 at 6:48am

In addition, Hypnosis is not possible during sleep. The brain must be functioning at a measurable level of awareness in order for Hypnosis to occur.

All the best,

Dr. Regal

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Permalink Reply by Jonathan Chase on February 8, 2010 at 7:44am

Thanks Doc,

I would contend therefore, I have no idea of the accuracy of these perceived levels of EEG however, I would contend that without Theta levels there is no hypnosis and that yes, I totally agree that the brain must be both active and functioning for the process to take place.

In my experience though fear is a handy doorway into hypnosis certainly not tempered by it.

Doc Regal said:

Jonathan,

I introduced penned definitions from other authors in my prior post, not my thoughts on this matter. I shall now proceed, with a deeper understanding of what you are seeking to convey, and attempt to delineate precisely and succinctly what Hypnosis is and it is not from my point of view.

Brain activity is measured by frequencies. Examples follow: The phenomenon of hysteria is gamma level of EEG. The phenomenon of waking state is beta level of EEG. The phenomenon of trance is alpha level of EEG. The phenomenon of somnambulism is theta level of EEG. The phenomenon of sleep is delta level of EEG.

Mind is non-measurable. It exists in a realm beyond physical space. Its essence is indescribable energy, and it is invisible to our shared three-dimensional reality.

Hypnosis is the bypassing of an "active" (i.e. thinking , feeling or perceiving) brain in order to instill in ones mind "suggestions", i.e. thoughts, ideas or concepts. A light state of Hypnosis is achieved during the alpha state when the brain's activity is somewhat reduced. A deep state of Hypnosis is achieved during the theta state when the brain's activity is significantly reduced.

The degree of receptivity to hypnosis is not to be equated with suggestibility, rather it parallels the level of ones "hypnotizability". This is tempered (i.e. counterbalanced) by an emotional condition called fear.

All the best,

Dr. Regal
Atlanta, GA

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Permalink Reply by AJ on February 8, 2010 at 9:18am

Jonathan,

We are very close to sharing a definition on Hypnosis. The point of contingency is the very moment when hypnosis occurs. The dividing line for me is whether or not the brain is functioning at a capacity where it can successfully interfere with the receptivity of mind. With regards to the brain's sleeping state we concur that Hypnosis cannot exist. In fact, we also concur that Hypnosis is present during the theta state, i.e. during pre-consciousness. In the semi-conscious state of alpha, I further assert that Hypnosis (as perceived by mankind) is to a “lesser” degree present as well as during the conscious state of beta. I further surmise that the super-conscious state of gamma is also a hypnotic state, although it may indeed be in alignment with absolute truth.

The measurable range for each level of brain activity varies depending upon the observer's (e.g. scientist's or clinician's) interpretation of the EEG or for that matter, any sensory perception. All brain activity to some extent can be postulated or reasonably argued as hypnotic for ones point of view (mental perspective) is unavoidably limited by fallible sensory mechanisms and therefore hindered.

In brevity I am saying that in the world of relative absolutes, hypnosis occurs to varying degrees from a pre-conscious to a super-conscious perspective, since suspended reality is omnipresent in our three dimensional world, i.e. absolutely true perceptions are impaired, thus all truths are inconceivable and beyond provable. I also add that Hypnosis is only non-existent, and necessarily so, in the realm of unconsciousness because awareness (observable activity) is required for any transference of any imposed suggestion whether by the self or another.

With regards to any direct doorway to the mind, fear is an impediment. Trusting the process is paramount.

Thank you for your continued interest in this matter.

Dr. Regal

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Permalink Reply by John Cleesattel on February 8, 2010 at 11:45am

I'm not real sure I buy that one. We ARE aware during sleep. If we weren't, we wouldn't be woken up by noises or be able to respond to input from others without waking up. I have experienced both cases from both sides. Cases of hypnosis during sleep have been documented, even in Elman's book Hypnotherapy as I recall.

John

Doc Regal said:

In addition, Hypnosis is not possible during sleep. The brain must be functioning at a measurable level of awareness in order for Hypnosis to occur.

All the best,

Dr. Regal

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Permalink Reply by Reg Blackwood - The Quicknotist on February 8, 2010 at 12:04pm

Good call :)
Reg
http://quicknotist.com/

Ian Jay said:

All we have to do now is define 'aware', 'sleep', 'waking-up', and 'hypnosis'.

;-)

IJ

John Cleesattel said:

I'm not real sure I buy that one. We ARE aware during sleep. If we weren't, we wouldn't be woken up by noises or be able to respond to input from others without waking up. I have experienced both cases from both sides. Cases of hypnosis during sleep have been documented, even in Elman's book Hypnotherapy as I recall.
John Doc Regal said:

In addition, Hypnosis is not possible during sleep. The brain must be functioning at a measurable level of awareness in order for Hypnosis to occur.

All the best, Dr. Regal

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Permalink Reply by AJ on February 8, 2010 at 1:46pm

"In my own work, I have tried to induce sleep in hypnosis by every known technique, but have yet to see the first success."

Pg. 284 Dave Elman, Hypnotherapy © 1964

That awareness you refer to, John, is from ones "mind". The brain is recharging during sleep. Upon being startled in some physiological way, the brain is first activated. Until then, dreams are in the mind. A brain does not conduct dreaming. The brain is a processor. It "ponders" the past, "thinks" in the moment or "wonders" about the future. Dreams themselves are of the subconscious milieu where "thoughts" and "emotions" and "perceptions" reside. They are stored in memory. Their existence is legendary yet evasive to sensory perceptions, because in order to be understood they must first be accessed by a brain. The brain receives, interprets and comprehends the mind's promptings.

Dr. Regal
John Cleesattel said:

I'm not real sure I buy that one. We ARE aware during sleep. If we weren't, we wouldn't be woken up by noises or be able to respond to input from others without waking up. I have experienced both cases from both sides. Cases of hypnosis during sleep have been documented, even in Elman's book Hypnotherapy as I recall.
John Doc Regal said:

In addition, Hypnosis is not possible during sleep. The brain must be functioning at a measurable level of awareness in order for Hypnosis to occur.

All the best, Dr. Regal

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Permalink Reply by Ricky Strode on February 8, 2010 at 3:58pm

Brain waves measurements are just that brain measurments. It cannot and will not determine trance, or hypnosis, because the content decideds how much brain activity is actually going on. There may be some significant patterns found, but that only shows them patterns and does not dictate depth, whether hypnosis or trance is actually occuring there are alot of thing we can do with our senses that machines cannot do. There are things that cannot be faked and machine are failable. In my opinion self induced trance can have alot of possitive effect, but it is not as useful as hypnosis in the aspect of drastic change work, because they are still usuing their model of the world and the greatest changes are adding to what you already have not just going futher with what you have.

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Permalink Reply by Ricky Strode on February 8, 2010 at 4:01pm

I haven't tried to induce sleep, but I suggested the ability to be able to go to sleep much much easier and to sleep much much more comfortably than they do already.

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Permalink Reply by John Cleesattel on February 8, 2010 at 4:47pm

You forgot to include trance in that group, which I have defined, as well as generic hypnosis. :)

John

Ian Jay said:

All we have to do now is define 'aware', 'sleep', 'waking-up', and 'hypnosis'.

;-)

IJ

John Cleesattel said:

I'm not real sure I buy that one. We ARE aware during sleep. If we weren't, we wouldn't be woken up by noises or be able to respond to input from others without waking up. I have experienced both cases from both sides. Cases of hypnosis during sleep have been documented, even in Elman's book Hypnotherapy as I recall.
John Doc Regal said:

In addition, Hypnosis is not possible during sleep. The brain must be functioning at a measurable level of awareness in order for Hypnosis to occur.

All the best, Dr. Regal

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by John Cleesattel on February 8, 2010 at 4:55pm

I have given away my Dave Elman book Hypnotherapy so I cannot quote chapter and verse. Dave himself noted (per your quote) that only "he" had yet to see the first success.

Later on in the book however, he had a student that asked him about it specifically. He told the student that it would not work and that he should not try it. The student later told him that he had indeed tried it and it had worked well. I have read other accounts of it as well, using assigned responses by finger movements as a communication medium during trance while asleep.

There are at least 3 different and unique minds that comprise what we consider as our mind, and only one of them (the analytical mind) sleeps.

John


Doc Regal said:

"In my own work, I have tried to induce sleep in hypnosis by every known technique, but have yet to see the first success."

Pg. 284 Dave Elman, Hypnotherapy © 1964

That awareness you refer to, John, is from ones "mind". The brain is recharging during sleep. Upon being startled in some physiological way, the brain is first activated. Until then, dreams are in the mind. A brain does not conduct dreaming. The brain is a processor. It "ponders" the past, "thinks" in the moment or "wonders" about the future. Dreams themselves are of the subconscious milieu where "thoughts" and "emotions" and "perceptions" reside. They are stored in memory. Their existence is legendary yet evasive to sensory perceptions, because in order to be understood they must first be accessed by a brain. The brain receives, interprets and comprehends the mind's promptings.

Dr. Regal
John Cleesattel said:

I'm not real sure I buy that one. We ARE aware during sleep. If we weren't, we wouldn't be woken up by noises or be able to respond to input from others without waking up. I have experienced both cases from both sides. Cases of hypnosis during sleep have been documented, even in Elman's book Hypnotherapy as I recall.
John Doc Regal said:

In addition, Hypnosis is not possible during sleep. The brain must be functioning at a measurable level of awareness in order for Hypnosis to occur.

All the best, Dr. Regal

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