There is no such thing as "Self" Hypnosis

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Permalink Reply by Doc Regal on February 8, 2010 at 1:46pm

"In my own work, I have tried to induce sleep in hypnosis by every known technique, but have yet to see the first success."

Pg. 284 Dave Elman, Hypnotherapy © 1964

That awareness you refer to, John, is from ones "mind". The brain is recharging during sleep. Upon being startled in some physiological way, the brain is first activated. Until then, dreams are in the mind. A brain does not conduct dreaming. The brain is a processor. It "ponders" the past, "thinks" in the moment or "wonders" about the future. Dreams themselves are of the subconscious milieu where "thoughts" and "emotions" and "perceptions" reside. They are stored in memory. Their existence is legendary yet evasive to sensory perceptions, because in order to be understood they must first be accessed by a brain. The brain receives, interprets and comprehends the mind's promptings.

Dr. Regal
John Cleesattel said:

I'm not real sure I buy that one. We ARE aware during sleep. If we weren't, we wouldn't be woken up by noises or be able to respond to input from others without waking up. I have experienced both cases from both sides. Cases of hypnosis during sleep have been documented, even in Elman's book Hypnotherapy as I recall.
John Doc Regal said:

In addition, Hypnosis is not possible during sleep. The brain must be functioning at a measurable level of awareness in order for Hypnosis to occur.

All the best, Dr. Regal

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Permalink Reply by ricky strode on February 8, 2010 at 3:58pm

Brain waves measurements are just that brain measurments. It cannot and will not determine trance, or hypnosis, because the content decideds how much brain activity is actually going on. There may be some significant patterns found, but that only shows them patterns and does not dictate depth, whether hypnosis or trance is actually occuring there are alot of thing we can do with our senses that machines cannot do. There are things that cannot be faked and machine are failable. In my opinion self induced trance can have alot of possitive effect, but it is not as useful as hypnosis in the aspect of drastic change work, because they are still usuing their model of the world and the greatest changes are adding to what you already have not just going futher with what you have.

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Permalink Reply by ricky strode on February 8, 2010 at 4:01pm

I haven't tried to induce sleep, but I suggested the ability to be able to go to sleep much much easier and to sleep much much more comfortably than they do already.

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Permalink Reply by John Cleesattel on February 8, 2010 at 4:47pm

You forgot to include trance in that group, which I have defined, as well as generic hypnosis. :)

John

Ian Jay said:

All we have to do now is define 'aware', 'sleep', 'waking-up', and 'hypnosis'.

;-)

IJ

John Cleesattel said:

I'm not real sure I buy that one. We ARE aware during sleep. If we weren't, we wouldn't be woken up by noises or be able to respond to input from others without waking up. I have experienced both cases from both sides. Cases of hypnosis during sleep have been documented, even in Elman's book Hypnotherapy as I recall.
John Doc Regal said:

In addition, Hypnosis is not possible during sleep. The brain must be functioning at a measurable level of awareness in order for Hypnosis to occur.

All the best, Dr. Regal

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Permalink Reply by John Cleesattel on February 8, 2010 at 4:55pm

I have given away my Dave Elman book Hypnotherapy so I cannot quote chapter and verse. Dave himself noted (per your quote) that only "he" had yet to see the first success.

Later on in the book however, he had a student that asked him about it specifically. He told the student that it would not work and that he should not try it. The student later told him that he had indeed tried it and it had worked well. I have read other accounts of it as well, using assigned responses by finger movements as a communication medium during trance while asleep.

There are at least 3 different and unique minds that comprise what we consider as our mind, and only one of them (the analytical mind) sleeps.

John


Doc Regal said:

"In my own work, I have tried to induce sleep in hypnosis by every known technique, but have yet to see the first success."

Pg. 284 Dave Elman, Hypnotherapy © 1964

That awareness you refer to, John, is from ones "mind". The brain is recharging during sleep. Upon being startled in some physiological way, the brain is first activated. Until then, dreams are in the mind. A brain does not conduct dreaming. The brain is a processor. It "ponders" the past, "thinks" in the moment or "wonders" about the future. Dreams themselves are of the subconscious milieu where "thoughts" and "emotions" and "perceptions" reside. They are stored in memory. Their existence is legendary yet evasive to sensory perceptions, because in order to be understood they must first be accessed by a brain. The brain receives, interprets and comprehends the mind's promptings.

Dr. Regal
John Cleesattel said:

I'm not real sure I buy that one. We ARE aware during sleep. If we weren't, we wouldn't be woken up by noises or be able to respond to input from others without waking up. I have experienced both cases from both sides. Cases of hypnosis during sleep have been documented, even in Elman's book Hypnotherapy as I recall.
John Doc Regal said:

In addition, Hypnosis is not possible during sleep. The brain must be functioning at a measurable level of awareness in order for Hypnosis to occur.

All the best, Dr. Regal

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Permalink Reply by Gilson Costa on February 8, 2010 at 4:56pm

I agree with Richard: "just semantics", or as I call them "word puzzles".

The other way to say it, is the very opposite: there's no such a thing as hetero hypnosis. Everything is "self", that is executed by the very person "in which" the trance happens. The hypnotist is merely a facilitator, a guide....

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Permalink Reply by Doc Regal on February 8, 2010 at 5:10pm

John, you are probably referring to Elman's "hypno-sleep" which is not the sleeping state.

"I find only five usable depths, and I've covered all of them. One is the light or superficial state. Two is the somnambulistic state which can be compounded to any depth. Three is the coma or Esdaile state, sometimes called the plenary state. Four is hypnosleep. (These four are the so-called trance states.) Five is waking hynosis-a state which doctors have found..."
-Pg. 300 ibid.

"Hypnosis is impossible without communication. If you can't establish communication, there is no help which hypnosis has to offer."
-Pg. 301 ibid.

In my opinion, another copy belongs in your library.

All the best,

Doc Regal

John Cleesattel said:

I have given away my Dave Elman book Hypnotherapy so I cannot quote chapter and verse. Dave himself noted (per your quote) that only "he" had yet to see the first success.
Later on in the book however, he had a student that asked him about it specifically. He told the student that it would not work and that he should not try it. The student later told him that he had indeed tried it and it had worked well. I have read other accounts of it as well, using assigned responses by finger movements as a communication medium during trance while asleep.
There are at least 3 different and unique minds that comprise what we consider as our mind, and only one of them (the analytical mind) sleeps.

John


Doc Regal said:

"In my own work, I have tried to induce sleep in hypnosis by every known technique, but have yet to see the first success."

Pg. 284 Dave Elman, Hypnotherapy © 1964 That awareness you refer to, John, is from ones "mind". The brain is recharging during sleep. Upon being startled in some physiological way, the brain is first activated. Until then, dreams are in the mind. A brain does not conduct dreaming. The brain is a processor. It "ponders" the past, "thinks" in the moment or "wonders" about the future. Dreams themselves are of the subconscious milieu where "thoughts" and "emotions" and "perceptions" reside. They are stored in memory. Their existence is legendary yet evasive to sensory perceptions, because in order to be understood they must first be accessed by a brain. The brain receives, interprets and comprehends the mind's promptings.

Dr. Regal
John Cleesattel said:

I'm not real sure I buy that one. We ARE aware during sleep. If we weren't, we wouldn't be woken up by noises or be able to respond to input from others without waking up. I have experienced both cases from both sides. Cases of hypnosis during sleep have been documented, even in Elman's book Hypnotherapy as I recall.
John Doc Regal said:

In addition, Hypnosis is not possible during sleep. The brain must be functioning at a measurable level of awareness in order for Hypnosis to occur.

All the best, Dr. Regal

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Permalink Reply by ricky strode on February 8, 2010 at 5:11pm

Communication comes in more forms than just words.

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Permalink Reply by Jan Krüger on February 9, 2010 at 2:01am

Jonathan, you asked me to contribute something to this debate that wasn't just semantics. Let me do that by asking a simple question that I haven't seen answered in this discussion yet:

What is the practical advantage of not calling it self-hypnosis?

Doc Regal et al: Elman only said that he hadn't found a way to go from trance straight into sleep. Going the other way around (inducing a trance state from physiological sleep) became one of his standard techniques in time. He dedicated an entire chapter of the book "Hypnotherapy" to that.
Not that I care about any of that. I don't identify separable states of mind in my own reasoning; I only use those when talking to others, and not at all if I can avoid it.

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Permalink Reply by Adrian Tannock on February 9, 2010 at 2:11am

Here's a maths joke:

Enjoy.

Adrian

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Permalink Reply by Walt Potter on February 9, 2010 at 4:49am

I like this!

Adrian Tannock said:

Here's a maths joke:

Enjoy.

Adrian

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Permalink Reply by Adrian Tannock on February 9, 2010 at 5:15am

I figured you'd get it Walt :-) It seemed fitting for where this thread is heading:

Cheers!

Adrian


Walt Potter said:

I like this!
Adrian Tannock said:

Here's a maths joke:

Enjoy.

Adrian

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