Very deep depression

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Kevin Cole-NLPTrainingQuest.com on May 7, 2010 at 12:40am

Dominique-

First things first... Since your client came to you regarding depression and she is heavily medicated, I do hope you received a referral from her medical doctor and have been working closely with that doctor as your client is in fact, his/her patient.

Second, based on the information you have provided, it sounds as though you intensified her negative emotions (that she is heavily medicated for) regressed her to a rather traumatic experience and intensified it further.

Can I ask you Dominique, Before you decided to do this, did you consider teaching her How To Actually Feel Good First?

Depression of this magnitude can be life threatening...

You see, Dominique, I never regress someone back to cause without first making sure they have the positive resources (and a lot of them) to deal with whatever may come up, ESPECIALLY when they are suffering from severe depression.

You also want to understand how confusing it can be for a client in an altered state to be asked to "Be Your Father".

Do you know any history about her father?

I invite you to think for a moment... Just how traumatic it might be for an individual who is heavily medicated and depressed to be told to associate to negative emotions, then told to intensify them and to remember the very first time she felt them, and then be asked to imagine her father in a chair and be told to "Become Your Father" (when it's possible her father wasn't the ideal parent).

Dominique, I strongly encourage you to stay away from any kind of regression work... until you can guide the client into actually feeling good... Really good first... in the present moment, so that he/she has the resources to deal with whatever may pop up down memory lane.

I would also highly recommend contacting your client to be certain she is doing well after your session. You are working with something that can be potentially VERY dangerous.

Be Safe,

Kevin

Live NLP, Life Coach & Hypnosis Training Certification

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Permalink Reply by Dominique Vankrunkelsven on May 7, 2010 at 1:26am

Hello Kevin,

Thank you for this good information.

In the past I never do that kind of depression, all the other depression were not under high medication and I had never that kind ofproblems.

I know that tis kind of depression is potentially dangerous but till now I'm the only hypnotist with who she goes to a somnambulistic state and all the other psycologues can't help her and give her more and more medication. that's now the reason that I write my problem down here because I know that I can help her but the first session I had opened my eyes that I have to be prudent before doing something.

I understand what you wrote and I will first guide my client to good feelings before doing anything else, but that feeling that she have is stronger then every good possible feeling.

Thank you for your reaction,

Best regards,
Dominique

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Permalink Reply by Jenny Lynn on May 7, 2010 at 4:28am

Hi Kevin,
I agree with you wholeheartedly here. In fact, I probably wouldn't use hypnosis at all with deeply depressed people. The ability of the depressed imagination to imagine the worst is too great.

I would do alot of listening and hearing and tracking the issues back in the waking state to former times. I would look at routines and maintenance factors in the here and now that reinforce the messages they got from childhood. For example, perhaps the client has an overbearing partner and their drama is it's not worth standing up for yourself (childhood issue) in which case, I'd be challenging the situation in the here and now, asking them whether they might consider managing their responses to their partner's provocations differently. Supporting new behaviours in the here and now builds confidence that they CAN change.

Someone who is heavily medicated however, is in a bit of a catch 22 position. While medicated they are much harder to reach, but remove medication and they can become very unstable. It is my opinion that the deeper work is hard to achieve while a person is so heavily medicated. And I personally would steer clear of hypnosis till a person such as this is showing signs that they realise they can change their situations with some support.

I respect however, that Dominique may still be learning and it is brave of you to share your problem on the forum. My work is about giving hypnotherapists the underlying insight and psychology to be able to work with a range of different issues and know where to start, how far to push, and managing our own expectations of our clients' recovery when working with something as uniquely individual as the human mind. This aspect of our training is often overlooked by many hypnotherapy schools but actually remains a key ingredient to our success as therapists.

Hope the above is useful to you Dominique.
Best wishes
Jenny
www.readyourclient.com






Kevin Cole-NLPTrainingQuest.com said:

Dominique-

First things first... Since your client came to you regarding depression and she is heavily medicated, I do hope you received a referral from her medical doctor and have been working closely with that doctor as your client is in fact, his/her patient.

Second, based on the information you have provided, it sounds as though you intensified her negative emotions (that she is heavily medicated for) regressed her to a rather traumatic experience and intensified it further.

Can I ask you Dominique, Before you decided to do this, did you consider teaching her How To Actually Feel Good First?

Depression of this magnitude can be life threatening...

You see, Dominique, I never regress someone back to cause without first making sure they have the positive resources (and a lot of them) to deal with whatever may come up, ESPECIALLY when they are suffering from severe depression.

You also want to understand how confusing it can be for a client in an altered state to be asked to "Be Your Father".

Do you know any history about her father?

I invite you to think for a moment... Just how traumatic it might be for an individual who is heavily medicated and depressed to be told to associate to negative emotions, then told to intensify them and to remember the very first time she felt them, and then be asked to imagine her father in a chair and be told to "Become Your Father" (when it's possible her father wasn't the ideal parent).

Dominique, I strongly encourage you to stay away from any kind of regression work... until you can guide the client into actually feeling good... Really good first... in the present moment, so that he/she has the resources to deal with whatever may pop up down memory lane.

I would also highly recommend contacting your client to be certain she is doing well after your session. You are working with something that can be potentially VERY dangerous.

Be Safe,

Kevin

Live NLP, Life Coach & Hypnosis Training Certification

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Fable Goodman on May 7, 2010 at 5:01am

I am pretty much in agreement with Kevin, and Jenny,

When working with depression, even if it is not as deep as you describe, I would always tread gently.

Start with the lightest of techniques, do not go for the deep levels of relaxation or hypnosis, as this can allow 'stuff' to come to the surface that the person is not yet ready to deal with.

Deep relaxation techniques alone, or meditation, have been well documented to have risks of accelerating rather than alleviating depression.

So start light, and monitor the response over the following week, then based on feedback from the client on the next visit, you may be safe to take another step, or you may need to go even more gently. It is often the case that having done some relaxation / hypnosis work in one session, this frees up enough 'stuff' to make the next session simply a counselling style session, talking about and 'venting' what came up, since the last session.

I know some people will say that if they have come to see a hypnotherapist, then they expect hypnosis every time.
I don't think that is neccesarilly so.

Love and hugs,


Fable

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Permalink Reply by Dominique Vankrunkelsven on May 7, 2010 at 5:47am

Hello jenny and fable,

I agree that it's dangerous to try something hard, I see it the first time, but for me try to help her without hypnosis is not an option, much psychologues tried during more than 10 years to listen to her and try to help without hypnosis and it results now in much more medication and much more depression, even ECT didn't work, oh yes it works but for two or three weeks...

The two last times that I bring her in hypnosis, I used a few techniques that I saw from G kein to reject negativity and feels better, anker some points in earlier moment of her life where she feels better, it works very well but only for a few days, and the problem is that she stays in contact with her father, her husband can't handle it anymore, and I'm sure that if the base cause is not removed, she will stay in that deep depression.

best regards,
Dominique

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Permalink Reply by Kelley Woods on May 7, 2010 at 6:00am

In such a case where the influencing party is still in a client's life, I have utilized a protective shield. The client can erect the shield to filter perceived or real negative input from others at will. This can be taught without entering formal, deep trance and requires only a calibration of before and after, the intensity of which you should be able to control, if necessary, through disassociation.

Here's my protocol attached.

Best wishes,

Kelley

Attachments:

• protectiveshield.txt, 10 KB

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Permalink Reply by Kevin Cole-NLPTrainingQuest.com on May 7, 2010 at 12:25pm

Dominique-

"For you to try and help her without hypnosis is not an option" ?????

As someone with a great deal of experience guiding clients out of depression, starting with myself as my first client over 14 years ago... Let me share with you that traditional hypnosis (although profoundly useful for countless issues), IS NOT the only way, and more often than not, NOT the Best way to help a client with severe depression.

Before I continue, do me a favor and ensure me that any advice and experience I share with you, you will take to heart as if you were paying me thousands of dollars to learn it. Because that's how much my students pay.

I don't say that to come across as arrogant by the way. I say it because it will take me some time to write out a number of ways that you can profoundly impact your clients life and I want to make sure I'm sharing this information with someone that will take it seriously enough to realize that a life may depend on it. And I don't just mean your clients. I also mean your future as a hypnotherapist may depend on it.

From what you have shared above, You could have potentially end up with a deceased client, a major lawsuit on your hands, and guilt that I wouldn't wish on anyone... Especially someone I can tell is just trying to help someone in need.

So, let me know how serious you are about this. Prove to me in your words, that you have learned from your last experience and that you will take what I share with you, you will take very seriously AND APPLY... And I will offer what I can including a phone number (or Skype contact) to contact me direct with any additional questions (at no charge).


Again, Be Safe...

Kevin

Live NLP, Life Coach & Hypnosis Training Certification



Dominique Vankrunkelsven said:

Hello jenny and fable,
I agree that it's dangerous to try something hard, I see it the first time, but for me try to help her without hypnosis is not an option, much psychologues tried during more than 10 years to listen to her and try to help without hypnosis and it results now in much more medication and much more depression, even ECT didn't work, oh yes it works but for two or three weeks... The two last times that I bring her in hypnosis, I used a few techniques that I saw from G kein to reject negativity and feels better, anker some points in earlier moment of her life where she feels better, it works very well but only for a few days, and the problem is that she stays in contact with her father, her husband can't handle it anymore, and I'm sure that if the base cause is not removed, she will stay in that deep depression. best regards, Dominique

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Permalink Reply by Scott Sandland on May 7, 2010 at 12:45pm

Dominique-

I'd like to back up a step, if that's okay. I think you have gotten some great feedback already, so I want to look at this a different way, maybe even a few different ways (I'm not in the mood to do my end of the week book keeping stuff).

First of all, if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. I'm glad you recognized your plan wasn't working and came here to get new tools. Secondly, you were definitely using a hammer. That's a very aggressive and pounding style. You actually pounded (okay, tapped lightly, but still) her on the forehead when her eyes were closed. I see that as a metaphor for your approach to this situation. Quick, aggressive, and bold. That's not a bad thing, but it isn't always a good thing either.

What if you worked with her to imagine a future time with her father telling her how great she is and how she can do anything? What if you have her visit the 19 year old girl and the two of them together forgive the father? What if you do work that is based on ego strengthening and leave the father out of it entirely? Maybe you could anchor all her feelings of success and power throughout her life and make those feelings stronger. What if you empowered her to be in charge instead of you summoning memories and emotions with the wave of your hand?

We don't need to run to a regression to cause fix with all clients. Your client wants relief, maybe you just give her temporary relief for a session or two and help her build on that momentum. She invested years in the other process. Give yourself, and more importantly her, time to process and relax. There isn't a prize for doing it fastest but there is a lot to be gained by doing this right.

Another off the wall idea. Maybe her response was taken out of context. Maybe the memory you regressed her to was moments AFTER she first felt that feeling and she and her father were talking about it. Maybe it was him trying to encourage her, but it isn't remembered that way or it just wasn't expressed to you that way.

Don't rush to find a villain. We don't need to slay a dragon to help a person.

And I'd like to just respond to your thought that "...the psychologists can't help her and only give her medication." Giving her medication may have saved her life. It may have helped her quite a bit. We don't know, and it isn't a good idea for us to negate their contribution. They are using the tools they have to help people, just like we use ours.

I'd encourage you to find a bit more nuance and relaxation in your approach to people. Our clients don't come to us so that we can tell them who screwed up or what wend wrong. They come to us to feel better. Keep their goal in mind.

This is not your heroic journey to save this girl. We are the facilitators, the quiet helpers in the background. We introduce our clients to the things that will help them succeed on their own. Remind yourself that they are in charge and have the tools and answers already. It's our job to help them connect with those resources in their way, not ours.

Good luck,
Scott

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Permalink Reply by Graham Old on May 7, 2010 at 1:07pm

It's not necessary to use regression to treat depression.

I'd suggest sending her to someone who can do some REBT.

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Permalink Reply by Ricky Strode on May 7, 2010 at 1:08pm

The roots not the problem unless thats what she wants to do. It is the things that trigger the depression. I would start by making it easier to deal with it.I'd do the by what they call chaining anchors. I would anchor a couple of states where she is really motivated, very creative and add a good amount of humor to it. I would keep re-inforcing the anchor until I gt a really good change in mental states when I fire it off by test it with smaller depression problems. This way you are not taking the depression away, but add additional resources that automaticaly run when the thing that trigger different forms of depression. A problem is only a challenge that someone has been stuck and feels as if there are no other possibilities.

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Permalink Reply by Dominique Vankrunkelsven on May 7, 2010 at 1:45pm

Hello Kevin and Scott

First of all, if my opinion is that help this person without hypnosis is not an option it's in the first place beacaus I lose confiance in all the other methods, the prove is here that this person is going to psychologues for more then 10 years and the only thing they did because they can't help her is give more medication but now she told me that she is on the maximum.

Second thing is that normally when I see this kind of depression I tell people that i will not do this but her husband is also at the end of the road and do not know what to do more to help his wif, she tried allready to make an end on her life etc etc....

I always use hypnosis to help people and even with depressions I always made good results and had some reputation here in the City and like Scott told in his answer, this time I realise that this was really not the good thing to do, so I really need help, so even if you think that for me without hypnosis is not an option, then give me e reason to believe that it can help and say to me what you think about what other psychologues did wrong?

At this moment my priority is to apply what will help, but I will not do anything before I know what I have to do because if I do not have the correct information I will not help this person anymore.

I will thank you very much,

best regards,
Dominique

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Permalink Reply by Kevin Cole-NLPTrainingQuest.com on May 7, 2010 at 2:01pm

How's this for an answer, Dom...

15 years ago, I attempted to off myself on 2 separate occasions because of extreme depression. And believe me, it wasn't just a cry for help. I was done with what I believed at the time to be a planet I didn't want to be a part of anymore...

14 years ago, I discovered NLP and learned how my own brain works and although I don't always have control over what happens to me or around me, I ALWAYS have control over how I feel about it and I learned to absolutely adore life.

Although I have a bad day here/there, I understand how to feel whatever I want to feel, whenever I want to feel it and this includes changing my negative emotional state into a powerfully positive and resourceful one.

That said, I achieved that with Zero traditional hypnosis.

I later learned and mastered traditional hypnotherapy and even studied with the recently deceased Gil Boyne, and when it comes to depression, especially severe depression, I give clients an immediate experience of HOW to Feel Good... Really Good, right off the bat during our first session together.

No deep trance, just a change in physiology and knowledge of what works. What really works...

That said, I do understand your frustration with the methods of traditional psychology. (We still need to work WITH them as apposed to against them though) and it's apparent that you care a great deal about your clients and people in general. It sounds however, that you are only looking at traditional hypnosis and traditional psychology as your only two options.

Do you think there aren't other options? Perhaps extremely effective options?

Again, I offer my expertise in this area but please, convince me it won't fall on deaf ears...


Best,

Kevin

Live NLP, Life Coach & Hypnosis Training Certification







Dominique Vankrunkelsven said:

Hello Kevin and Scott
First of all, if my opinion is that help this person without hypnosis is not an option it's in the first place beacaus I lose confiance in all the other methods, the prove is here that this person is going to psychologues for more then 10 years and the only thing they did because they can't help her is give more medication but now she told me that she is on the maximum. Second thing is that normally when I see this kind of depression I tell people that i will not do this but her husband is also at the end of the road and do not know what to do more to help his wif, she tried allready to make an end on her life etc etc.... I always use hypnosis to help people and even with depressions I always made good results and had some reputation here in the City and like Scott told in his answer, this time I realise that this was really not the good thing to do, so I really need help, so even if you think that for me without hypnosis is not an option, then give me e reason to believe that it can help and say to me what you think about what other psychologues did wrong?

At this moment my priority is to apply what will help, but I will not do anything before I know what I have to do because if I do not have the correct information I will not help this person anymore.

I will thank you very much,

best regards,
Dominique

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