the Free Hypnosis Social Network
Where they asleep?????
I would like ya'lls advice and opinion.
This past weekend I gave a group course on weight loss, there where about 12 people there. After some inductions, I asked them to lay confortably on the floor, with a pillow on their heads.I inducted them quite deep but when I emerged them, over 80% told me I had lost them, they didnt remember anything past the induction although they woke up at the count of 5.
My questions:
1.- Where they asleep?
2.- Did they get the sugestion I gave them anyway?
3.- How do you avoid this? for all of them to go to sleep if they where asleep
Your opinions are appreciated.
Gus
This past weekend I gave a group course on weight loss, there where about 12 people there. After some inductions, I asked them to lay confortably on the floor, with a pillow on their heads.I inducted them quite deep but when I emerged them, over 80% told me I had lost them, they didnt remember anything past the induction although they woke up at the count of 5.
My questions:
1.- Where they asleep?
2.- Did they get the sugestion I gave them anyway?
3.- How do you avoid this? for all of them to go to sleep if they where asleep
Your opinions are appreciated.
Gus
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Kelley Woods on -
Reg,
I like your comments here. Those who don't want to test hypnotic level may be fearful of failure, as I was as a newbie hypnotist. I finally forced myself to use tests and got over it. Nowadays I still use some when appropriate and enjoy proof of mine and my client's abilities!
Best wishes,
Kelley
Reg Blackwood - The Quicknotist said:No. It's not about proof for the client, it's about testing your work.
You should of course, be able to recognise the signs, but in the event of not being sure, TEST - with phenomena. Why not?
The PHS (I added as an after-thought) can be solidification (albeit subconsciously) for the client.
Borrowing from John Cerbone, it could be: "You won't know WHY you find my red pen so funny, it just is."
Going back to the original post, I don't believe "waking on 5" is a good enough indicator.
In my opinion, not knowing whether your client was Hypnotised or not isn't a good position to be in.
Worse, it could be seen as a sign of not wanting to know/caring.
Lack of testing/not recognising the signs is a problem in our industry.
How many people ask for their money back from a Hypnotist? They're more likely to simply go around spreading their opinion that Hypnosis "doesn't work" and that's not good for any of us.
But what would I know eh? I'm just a funny Street and Stage Hypnotist guy, like those so despised by some on this forum.
I feel arantblog coming on!
Reg
http://quicknotist.com/
Fable Goodman said:I suspect that Reg simply means giving them some sort of Post hypnotic suggestion,
which proves they are responding hypnotically.
If they respond, they feel more confident that your treatment will work,
If they don't, you give them licence to dismiss your treatment,
which may have worked fine otherwise.
I think it is a question of whether you feel you need to prove to your clients that they were in hypnosis,
or whether you are simply content to do good work,
nd leave it to them, to take what they can from that good work.
I tend to go somewhere in the middle,
I give clients ample opportunity within the session,
to realise that they are responding well,
without feeling the need to prove it with post hypnotic suggestions,
(other than the threrapeutic ones they need )
Love and hugs,
Fable
-
Permalink Reply by Gus on -
Thank you so much Adrian, I will take your advice
Gus
Adrian Tannock said:I'm with Kelley here.
When you first start, you can fear testing for true hypnosis in case you haven't got it. This is only natural at the beginning; it's a matter of confidence. I'd say this is fairly universal to being human, and reflects that stage of development between being introduced to something and recognising your innate talent, and becoming more and more aware of how much finesse the art of hypnosis requires...
Anyway, I always, always, always establish an IMR (ideo-motor response) after an induction & deepener*...
"And I'd like the Unconscious mind to know... that in involuntary movements that do not need to be helped by the conscious mind... the Unconscious can make that pointing finger on that right hand begin to Twitch... ... ... up.... that's right, more and more... as if that finger is now being pulled up by a piece of string... (etc, etc)... That's right, and then it can relax all the way down, and you can drift even deeper..." etc... Make up your own patter it works better. Learn to recognise the difference beween an unconscious IMR, and somebody just lifting their finger consciously ;-)
This usually has a positive effect on the client's levels of expectation; their finger lifting in involuntary movements is non-routine, and so they realise there is some magic going on...
However, it also means you can be sure that the client is experiencing genuine hypnosis...
Finally, gaining a true IMR means you can now do Cool Stuff in trance (typical examples being revivifying unconscious memories in dissociated form without an affect bridge, or clarifying what the positive intention behind challenging behaviours is, each tied to the IMR)
"And as that finger lifts so the unconscious mind makes this information clear to the conscious mind... in words, pictures, sounds, ideas... you don't need to grasp around for it... certain things will just pop into your mind... that's right... the finger lifts and it becomes clearer and clearer... and as it is becoming clearer that finger lifts more and more..." (etc, etc)
The applications of this are endless. The IMR becomes your interface and the UCs becomes an endlessly astonishing organic form of Google... ;-) ;-) ;-)
Anyway, after delivering any hypnotic suggestions I'll always summarise those suggestions, and ask the unconscious to take responsibility for making these changes (ref: John Grinder's refined 6-step reframe) and get an IMR to confirm, whilst reminding the UCs of the motivating factor when it comes to making these changes**. To my mind, no IMR at this point means something hasn't sat right and needs to be explored.
In general terms (i.e. not aimed specifically at you Gus), my view is without testing for true hypnosis, you're flying blind. Without testing, you run the risk of just hoping it is working, which may well inhibit a person's chances of positive, personal change.
Cheers,
Adrian
* PS: Maybe every 1 in 100 I'll get a situation with no IMR present. If so: don't panic, do another deepener, and it should happen. Maybe every1 in 200 I'll get a situation where no IMR is present, even after a second deepener. If so: don't panic, do the work you were trying to do without IMR and with 100% unflappable confidence in your voice, revivify and check that their experience was as it would have been if an IMR was there. 99% of the time, that'll be the case. If not, explore issues such as rapport, secondary gain, and transference / counter-transference.
** PPS: Hint: the motivation is always to feel better feelings! ;-)
-
Permalink Reply by Fable Goodman on -
I am a great advocate of appropriate,
and flexible use of the IMR
in hypnosis sessions with clients.
Also of monitoring, and assessing the hypnotic response within the session
(whether it be with an individual client or a group).
But going back to the original posting,
I seem to remember you were working with a group of 12 people lying on the floor.
I am assuming giving them all the same induction/deepeners/suggestions etc.
In this context the use of the IMR becomes a bit less viable,
Unless you go round each subject in turn,
speaking to them individually,
and observing their IMRs before moving on to the next one.
Still very possible, but takes a lot more managing.
Love and hugs,
Fable
-
Permalink Reply by James Hazlerig on -
Fable makes a good point about group sessions.
When I do group work, I make sure that we get eye catalepsy early on. Even though we hypnotists know it's the easiest phenomenon to achieve, the participants are often converted from doubters to believers in that moment. Further convincers really aren't needed, though a few might get worked in where they fit. (For instance, before giving suggestions to encourage water consumption, I usually induce an intense feeling of thirst and dry mouth.)
James
-
Permalink Reply by Kelley Woods on
-
Oh yes...and Jamie Smart's Hand Clasp demo is great for convincing groups that they can change...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV-m8eFnVYc
-
Permalink Reply by Michael Ellner on -
Hi All,
Hey Reg --
Let me start by saying if we all agreed about what we do and the best way to do it -- it would suggest non-thinking... Respectful disagreement is good for all of us. Sometimes my passion is experienced as disrespect and I am working on that -- I want to be respectful to all of the members of our community. I recognize and appreciate mastery and I don't ever mean to give the impression that a I believe that masterful stage-hypnotist's opinion is less valuable than the opinion of a masterful hypno-"therapist" On the other hand, I have little patience for hypnos who are not masterful -- Just so you and I understand each other -- I consider you a Masterful Hypno -
FYI - I had a small but excellent stage act between 1963 and 1965 or 1966 and my friends and I would put shows on for each other and our families --
I started my professional practice in 1980 and I have dozens of certifications and I practiced in a very conventional way through about 1984 and I was very good at it-- I pretty much believed every thing that I was taught and I believed that convincers and tests were necessary -- These days I rarely use convincers or test and I believe that I am very effective as well... Even more effective in the sense of having more experience and continued study--
My personal and professional goal is to make our services available to the tens of millions of people who can benefit from our services, but who have fears and doubts about being hypnotized. Part of that journey involves respectfully exploring possible road blocks to doing that -- I am aware that "Entertainment Hypnosis" can educate and promote hypnosis or confirm those fears and doubts by reinforcing common misconceptions -- Some times my passion gives the impression that I would BAN street and stage hypnosis - that's not my thing --
I have mentored about 250 hypnos and I have heard many of them say - the client didn't think they were hypnotized but they got their desired outcome and changed their mind -- I have heard many hypnos say my client was sure they were hypnotized and it didn't help them achieve their goal -- So - I don't believe tests or convincers are necessary and I "believe" that they appear to make your sessions more effective because of your beliefs and expectations... To expand on that, I now believe that a masterful hypno can make just about any technique seem to be very effective. I also believe that in the hands of mediocre practitioners convincers and tests can be counter-productive. However, I try to always say that -- I honor and respect hypnos that are effective -- Some times my buttons are pushed by people that teach or promote the belief that if you don't do it "their" way it is not effective -- Some of the RTC&Fix members of HT.com who believe and often say this can bring out the worst in me if I am otherwise stressed.
FYI - In my experience and opinion, talking about Idiomotor communication to most mainstream health care "experts" is like waving a red flag that says I am a quack in front of their faces. Please understand that doesn't mean that I do not recognize that when masterful hypnos use IMR that their doing so can be and is very effective -- it means that I believe that the effectiveness is a result of suggestion rather than what you are doing -- I believe that is true for every technique that we use--
Gus,
When we become absorbed in something we tend to tune out other input - Perhaps you have had the experience of watching your favorite team and not hearing your wife calling you to dinner -- (if you like sports and are married)
In group hypnotic situations like yours - your imagery engaged about 80% of the attendees and they spaced-- According to me, that is evidence that you getting better and better at this -- Were any of them sleeping - probably not - were they in productive trance states -- you betcha!
Your set-up can help you set the stage for successful outcomes -- "Some of you will hear every word I say - Some of you will not hear me consciously and some of you might go in and out -- All of you will experience the best level of trance to get the most out of this experience -- Blah, blah, blah...
Michael E.
(PS -- I think the exchange rate is still about 15ps to a dollar - You know what to do...)
Reg Blackwood - The Quicknotist said:No. It's not about proof for the client, it's about testing your work.
You should of course, be able to recognise the signs, but in the event of not being sure, TEST - with phenomena. Why not? The PHS (I added as an after-thought) can be solidification (albeit subconsciously) for the client. Borrowing from John Cerbone, it could be: "You won't know WHY you find my red pen so funny, it just is."
Going back to the original post, I don't believe "waking on 5" is a good enough indicator.
In my opinion, not knowing whether your client was Hypnotised or not isn't a good position to be in.
Worse, it could be seen as a sign of not wanting to know/caring.
Lack of testing/not recognising the signs is a problem in our industry.
How many people ask for their money back from a Hypnotist? They're more likely to simply go around spreading their opinion that Hypnosis "doesn't work" and that's not good for any of us.
But what would I know eh? I'm just a funny Street and Stage Hypnotist guy, like those so despised by some on this forum.
I feel arantblog coming on!
Reg
http://quicknotist.com/
Fable Goodman said:I suspect that Reg simply means giving them some sort of Post hypnotic suggestion,
which proves they are responding hypnotically.
If they respond, they feel more confident that your treatment will work,
If they don't, you give them licence to dismiss your treatment,
which may have worked fine otherwise.
I think it is a question of whether you feel you need to prove to your clients that they were in hypnosis,
or whether you are simply content to do good work,
nd leave it to them, to take what they can from that good work.
I tend to go somewhere in the middle,
I give clients ample opportunity within the session,
to realise that they are responding well,
without feeling the need to prove it with post hypnotic suggestions,
(other than the threrapeutic ones they need )
Love and hugs,
Fable
-
Permalink Reply by Reg Blackwood - The Quicknotist on -
You consider me a Masterful Hypno?
Well at least we agree on something ;)
Gus asked three questions:
Were they asleep?
Therefore, he doesn't know they weren't asleep. Part of him is wondering if they were.
He also asked whether the suggestions would work if they were asleep and how to avoid having them falling asleep.
OK so I admit, I didn't answer his questions directly.
Instead, I took it upon myself to answer what I saw as the unasked question:
"Were they Hypnotized?"
I took that opportunity to share my belief he could find the answer to that question by testing (and there were a couple of others here who agreed with me.)
You and a few others Michael (even though you weren't there) told him he did a wonderful job and that he shouldn't concern himself about whether or not he, or they, thought they were Hypnotized.
I'd say he was concerned enough about it to ask a question here, so I suggested a way for him to not have to ask that question again.
I'm not saying "my way" is better than anyone else's way.
I and others offered potential solutions to his quandary, whereas some told him he had no need for that quandary in the first place.
Which approach do you consider the most judgemental?
Gus will no doubt make up his own mind about who has best answered his questions.
Reg
http://quicknotist.com/
Michael Ellner said:Hi All,
Hey Reg --
Let me start by saying if we all agreed about what we do and the best way to do it -- it would suggest non-thinking... Respectful disagreement is good for all of us. Sometimes my passion is experienced as disrespect and I am working on that -- I want to be respectful to all of the members of our community. I recognize and appreciate mastery and I don't ever mean to give the impression that a I believe that masterful stage-hypnotist's opinion is less valuable than the opinion of a masterful hypno-"therapist" On the other hand, I have little patience for hypnos who are not masterful -- Just so you and I understand each other -- I consider you a Masterful Hypno -
FYI - I had a small but excellent stage act between 1963 and 1965 or 1966 and my friends and I would put shows on for each other and our families --
I started my professional practice in 1980 and I have dozens of certifications and I practiced in a very conventional way through about 1984 and I was very good at it-- I pretty much believed every thing that I was taught and I believed that convincers and tests were necessary -- These days I rarely use convincers or test and I believe that I am very effective as well... Even more effective in the sense of having more experience and continued study--
My personal and professional goal is to make our services available to the tens of millions of people who can benefit from our services, but who have fears and doubts about being hypnotized. Part of that journey involves respectfully exploring possible road blocks to doing that -- I am aware that "Entertainment Hypnosis" can educate and promote hypnosis or confirm those fears and doubts by reinforcing common misconceptions -- Some times my passion gives the impression that I would BAN street and stage hypnosis - that's not my thing --
I have mentored about 250 hypnos and I have heard many of them say - the client didn't think they were hypnotized but they got their desired outcome and changed their mind -- I have heard many hypnos say my client was sure they were hypnotized and it didn't help them achieve their goal -- So - I don't believe tests or convincers are necessary and I "believe" that they appear to make your sessions more effective because of your beliefs and expectations... To expand on that, I now believe that a masterful hypno can make just about any technique seem to be very effective. I also believe that in the hands of mediocre practitioners convincers and tests can be counter-productive. However, I try to always say that -- I honor and respect hypnos that are effective -- Some times my buttons are pushed by people that teach or promote the belief that if you don't do it "their" way it is not effective -- Some of the RTC&Fix members of HT.com who believe and often say this can bring out the worst in me if I am otherwise stressed.
FYI - In my experience and opinion, talking about Idiomotor communication to most mainstream health care "experts" is like waving a red flag that says I am a quack in front of their faces. Please understand that doesn't mean that I do not recognize that when masterful hypnos use IMR that their doing so can be and is very effective -- it means that I believe that the effectiveness is a result of suggestion rather than what you are doing -- I believe that is true for every technique that we use--
Gus,
When we become absorbed in something we tend to tune out other input - Perhaps you have had the experience of watching your favorite team and not hearing your wife calling you to dinner -- (if you like sports and are married)
In group hypnotic situations like yours - your imagery engaged about 80% of the attendees and they spaced-- According to me, that is evidence that you getting better and better at this -- Were any of them sleeping - probably not - were they in productive trance states -- you betcha!
Your set-up can help you set the stage for successful outcomes -- "Some of you will hear every word I say - Some of you will not hear me consciously and some of you might go in and out -- All of you will experience the best level of trance to get the most out of this experience -- Blah, blah, blah...
Michael E.
(PS -- I think the exchange rate is still about 15ps to a dollar - You know what to do...)
Reg Blackwood - The Quicknotist said:No. It's not about proof for the client, it's about testing your work.
You should of course, be able to recognise the signs, but in the event of not being sure, TEST - with phenomena. Why not? The PHS (I added as an after-thought) can be solidification (albeit subconsciously) for the client. Borrowing from John Cerbone, it could be: "You won't know WHY you find my red pen so funny, it just is."
Going back to the original post, I don't believe "waking on 5" is a good enough indicator.
In my opinion, not knowing whether your client was Hypnotised or not isn't a good position to be in.
Worse, it could be seen as a sign of not wanting to know/caring.
Lack of testing/not recognising the signs is a problem in our industry.
How many people ask for their money back from a Hypnotist? They're more likely to simply go around spreading their opinion that Hypnosis "doesn't work" and that's not good for any of us.
But what would I know eh? I'm just a funny Street and Stage Hypnotist guy, like those so despised by some on this forum.
I feel arantblog coming on!
Reg
http://quicknotist.com/
Fable Goodman said:I suspect that Reg simply means giving them some sort of Post hypnotic suggestion,
which proves they are responding hypnotically.
If they respond, they feel more confident that your treatment will work,
If they don't, you give them licence to dismiss your treatment,
which may have worked fine otherwise.
I think it is a question of whether you feel you need to prove to your clients that they were in hypnosis,
or whether you are simply content to do good work,
nd leave it to them, to take what they can from that good work.
I tend to go somewhere in the middle,
I give clients ample opportunity within the session,
to realise that they are responding well,
without feeling the need to prove it with post hypnotic suggestions,
(other than the threrapeutic ones they need )
Love and hugs,
Fable
-
Permalink Reply by Michael Ellner on
-
Hi Kelley,
Although, I like Jamie Smart and I agree that he is a masterful instructor, I wonder how you decided that Jamie's demo demonstrated that people can change--
FYI - The finger switch exercise that Jamie demonstrated has been around for decades - Sol Lewis was playing with this in the 1980s and he told me he came across the idea many years before that.
I do not think that Jamie's excellent presentation of the exercise is a convincer that people can change -- I say this because Jamie did not show us how many attendees raised their hands when he asked how many people in his audience still find that it feels weird or how many felt it is still kind of wierd or how many are okay with it --because, in my opinion -- that wasn't the point of the demonstration ... Watch it again -- The the magic of that demo was in how Jamie utilized his attendees experience- The suggestions that he made based on their experience -- which worked for attendees regardless of their individual responses
In my opinion, the goal of this demo is to make it reasonable to bellieve that having "experienced" how our minds and brains react to novel experiences -you will NOW be able to associate this kind of sensation with learning new things and be okay with them--
Newbies -- The imagine a lemon technique is a more powerful way to make people aware of just how easy it is to use their imaginations to create physiological changes--
Warmest regards,
Michael E
Kelley Woods said:Oh yes...and Jamie Smart's Hand Clasp demo is great for convincing groups that they can change...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV-m8eFnVYc
-
Permalink Reply by Michael Ellner on
-
Reg, et al,
When we offer our opinions - we are sharing a judgement -- Some insisted (not you,) that the problem with hypnosis was that some hypnotists didn't practice hypnosis their way -- Give me a break!
My opinion is that the only meaningful proof that a hypnotic session worked or not is not answered by whether or not the client passes a series of tests. The real nitty gritty is did the client get their desired results-- Some posters believe that eye catalepsy or IMR proves the client was hypnotized. For me the only proof is the whether or not the client got their desired result and passing these tests does not guarantee the results of a session.
Less experienced or confident practitioners may actually sabotage their session if the clients does not pass their tests and my goal was to share my experience and help Gus build his confidence (I'm that kind of guy =^..^=). Some clients actually believe that if they hear what you said they weren't hypnotized, others wonder how they could get a benefit, if they didn't hear what you said and it seemed to me that Gus wasn't sure his group session was effective.
I told Gus how he could set his clients up for success by suggesting that they can't screw it up -- Rather than worry about whether a client is hypnotized or not -- I strongly recommend that developing hypnosis practitioners take a walk on the wild side and focus their client's attention on the benefits and advantages of getting a desired outcome -- It is a powerful suggestion that they will get their desired outcomes --
Some posters agreed with Kelly, but they ignored her statement "When appropriate". Kelley never told us how often she uses these tests or how she decides if and when they are appropriate.
The following snippet is from a NY Times article on hypnosis: (The underlines are mine)
Snip:
PERSONAL HEALTH
The Possibilities in Hypnosis, Where the Patient Has the Power
By JANE E. BRODY
Published: November 3, 2008
My husband, Richard, smoked cigarettes for 50 years, having failed several attempts to quit on his own. When a friend told him in August 1994 that hypnosis had enabled her to quit, he decided to give it a try.
“It didn’t work; I wasn’t hypnotized,” he declared after his one and only session. But it did work; since that day, he has not taken one puff of a cigarette.
Gloria Kanter of Boynton Beach, Fla., thought her attempt in 1985 to use hypnosis to overcome her fear of flying had failed. “When the therapist brought me out, I said it didn’t work,” she recalled in an interview. “I told her, ‘I heard everything you said.’ ”
Nonetheless, the next time she and her husband headed for the airport, she was not drenched in sweat and paralyzed with fear. “I was just fine,” she said, “and I’ve been fine ever since.”
Like many others whose knowledge of hypnotism comes from movies and stage shows, my husband and Mrs. Kanter misunderstood what hypnosis is all about.
Un-snip
I agree with the above statement - I think many hypnosis experts mis-understand what hypnosis is all about --
If testing works for you -- Test your hearts out -- Please, just don't confuse your opinions with fact-- (Again, not you- Reg)
Michael E
Reg Blackwood - The Quicknotist said:You consider me a Masterful Hypno?
Well at least we agree on something ;)
Gus asked three questions:
Were they asleep?
Therefore, he doesn't know they weren't asleep. Part of him is wondering if they were.
He also asked whether the suggestions would work if they were asleep and how to avoid having them falling asleep.
OK so I admit, I didn't answer his questions directly.
Instead, I took it upon myself to answer what I saw as the unasked question:
"Were they Hypnotized?"
I took that opportunity to share my belief he could find the answer to that question by testing (and there were a couple of others here who agreed with me.)
You and a few others Michael (even though you weren't there) told him he did a wonderful job and that he shouldn't concern himself about whether or not he, or they, thought they were Hypnotized.
I'd say he was concerned enough about it to ask a question here, so I suggested a way for him to not have to ask that question again.
I'm not saying "my way" is better than anyone else's way.
I and others offered potential solutions to his quandary, whereas some told him he had no need for that quandary in the first place.
Which approach do you consider the most judgemental?
Gus will no doubt make up his own mind about who has best answered his questions.
Reg
http://quicknotist.com/
Michael Ellner said:Hi All,
Hey Reg --
Let me start by saying if we all agreed about what we do and the best way to do it -- it would suggest non-thinking... Respectful disagreement is good for all of us. Sometimes my passion is experienced as disrespect and I am working on that -- I want to be respectful to all of the members of our community. I recognize and appreciate mastery and I don't ever mean to give the impression that a I believe that masterful stage-hypnotist's opinion is less valuable than the opinion of a masterful hypno-"therapist" On the other hand, I have little patience for hypnos who are not masterful -- Just so you and I understand each other -- I consider you a Masterful Hypno -
FYI - I had a small but excellent stage act between 1963 and 1965 or 1966 and my friends and I would put shows on for each other and our families --
I started my professional practice in 1980 and I have dozens of certifications and I practiced in a very conventional way through about 1984 and I was very good at it-- I pretty much believed every thing that I was taught and I believed that convincers and tests were necessary -- These days I rarely use convincers or test and I believe that I am very effective as well... Even more effective in the sense of having more experience and continued study--
My personal and professional goal is to make our services available to the tens of millions of people who can benefit from our services, but who have fears and doubts about being hypnotized. Part of that journey involves respectfully exploring possible road blocks to doing that -- I am aware that "Entertainment Hypnosis" can educate and promote hypnosis or confirm those fears and doubts by reinforcing common misconceptions -- Some times my passion gives the impression that I would BAN street and stage hypnosis - that's not my thing --
I have mentored about 250 hypnos and I have heard many of them say - the client didn't think they were hypnotized but they got their desired outcome and changed their mind -- I have heard many hypnos say my client was sure they were hypnotized and it didn't help them achieve their goal -- So - I don't believe tests or convincers are necessary and I "believe" that they appear to make your sessions more effective because of your beliefs and expectations... To expand on that, I now believe that a masterful hypno can make just about any technique seem to be very effective. I also believe that in the hands of mediocre practitioners convincers and tests can be counter-productive. However, I try to always say that -- I honor and respect hypnos that are effective -- Some times my buttons are pushed by people that teach or promote the belief that if you don't do it "their" way it is not effective -- Some of the RTC&Fix members of HT.com who believe and often say this can bring out the worst in me if I am otherwise stressed.
FYI - In my experience and opinion, talking about Idiomotor communication to most mainstream health care "experts" is like waving a red flag that says I am a quack in front of their faces. Please understand that doesn't mean that I do not recognize that when masterful hypnos use IMR that their doing so can be and is very effective -- it means that I believe that the effectiveness is a result of suggestion rather than what you are doing -- I believe that is true for every technique that we use--
Gus,
When we become absorbed in something we tend to tune out other input - Perhaps you have had the experience of watching your favorite team and not hearing your wife calling you to dinner -- (if you like sports and are married)
In group hypnotic situations like yours - your imagery engaged about 80% of the attendees and they spaced-- According to me, that is evidence that you getting better and better at this -- Were any of them sleeping - probably not - were they in productive trance states -- you betcha!
Your set-up can help you set the stage for successful outcomes -- "Some of you will hear every word I say - Some of you will not hear me consciously and some of you might go in and out -- All of you will experience the best level of trance to get the most out of this experience -- Blah, blah, blah...
Michael E.
(PS -- I think the exchange rate is still about 15ps to a dollar - You know what to do...)
Reg Blackwood - The Quicknotist said:No. It's not about proof for the client, it's about testing your work.
You should of course, be able to recognise the signs, but in the event of not being sure, TEST - with phenomena. Why not? The PHS (I added as an after-thought) can be solidification (albeit subconsciously) for the client. Borrowing from John Cerbone, it could be: "You won't know WHY you find my red pen so funny, it just is."
Going back to the original post, I don't believe "waking on 5" is a good enough indicator.
In my opinion, not knowing whether your client was Hypnotised or not isn't a good position to be in.
Worse, it could be seen as a sign of not wanting to know/caring.
Lack of testing/not recognising the signs is a problem in our industry.
How many people ask for their money back from a Hypnotist? They're more likely to simply go around spreading their opinion that Hypnosis "doesn't work" and that's not good for any of us.
But what would I know eh? I'm just a funny Street and Stage Hypnotist guy, like those so despised by some on this forum.
I feel arantblog coming on!
Reg
http://quicknotist.com/
Fable Goodman said:I suspect that Reg simply means giving them some sort of Post hypnotic suggestion,
which proves they are responding hypnotically.
If they respond, they feel more confident that your treatment will work,
If they don't, you give them licence to dismiss your treatment,
which may have worked fine otherwise.
I think it is a question of whether you feel you need to prove to your clients that they were in hypnosis,
or whether you are simply content to do good work,
nd leave it to them, to take what they can from that good work.
I tend to go somewhere in the middle,
I give clients ample opportunity within the session,
to realise that they are responding well,
without feeling the need to prove it with post hypnotic suggestions,
(other than the threrapeutic ones they need )
Love and hugs,
Fable
-
Permalink Reply by Michael Ellner on
-
Adrian --
For your clarification.
1. There is no scientific way to demonstrate true hypnosis!
2. I never said that eliciting an IMR could never have a bearing on obtaining a successful outcome. Heck, pulling flying monkeys out a client's mind could have a bearing on obtaining a successful outcome. I will say this, all of the many scientists and researchers that I talked to about IMR have viewed IMR has having as much credibility as a Ouija board -
Adrian Tannock said:Michael Ellner said:Reg, et al,
Some posters believel that eye catalepsy or IMR proves something - For me the only proof is the whether or not the client got their desired result and passing these tests does not guarantee the results of a session.
Some posters agreed with Kelly, but they ignored her statement "When appropriate". Kelley never told us how often she uses these tests or how she decides if and when they are appropriate.
Michael,
1. If you were referring to me, I never conflated eliciting an IMR with a client's guaranteed outcome, and so I'd have to reject your statement as a straw man fallacy. Also, if you're saying that eliciting an IMR could never have a bearing on obtaining a successful outcome, I'd have to disagree.
2. Rather than ignoring Kelley's statement "where appropriate", I agreed with her statement re: fear of failure, and then clearly stated my own ideas about when is appropriate.
For your clarification.
Regards,
Adrian
-
Permalink Reply by James Hazlerig on
-
Funny phrasing, Michael, considering that the Ouija board relies on ideomotor response. :-)
Of course, that doesn't invalidate it as a means of contacting the unconscious mind, or even as a means of contacting the spirit world, if there is one.
I have to admit that I don't totally trust IMR/muscle testing as a diagnostic tool because it just seems way too easy to fake or even to influence a response. What if I unconsciously push a little harder on a client's arm when they state a falsehood?
I do use ideomotor action to demonstrate how powerful the unconscious mind is--by manipulating a tri-pendulum. It's a little theatrical, I admit, but I explain it in scientific terms.
James
Michael Ellner said:Adrian --
For your clarification.
1. There is no scientific way to demonstrate true hypnosis!
2. I never said that eliciting an IMR could never have a bearing on obtaining a successful outcome. Heck, pulling flying monkeys out a client's mind could have a bearing on obtaining a successful outcome. I will say this, all of the many scientists and researchers that I talked to about IMR have viewed IMR has having as much credibility as a Ouija board -
Adrian Tannock said:Michael Ellner said:Reg, et al,
Some posters believel that eye catalepsy or IMR proves something - For me the only proof is the whether or not the client got their desired result and passing these tests does not guarantee the results of a session.
Some posters agreed with Kelly, but they ignored her statement "When appropriate". Kelley never told us how often she uses these tests or how she decides if and when they are appropriate.
Michael,
1. If you were referring to me, I never conflated eliciting an IMR with a client's guaranteed outcome, and so I'd have to reject your statement as a straw man fallacy. Also, if you're saying that eliciting an IMR could never have a bearing on obtaining a successful outcome, I'd have to disagree.
2. Rather than ignoring Kelley's statement "where appropriate", I agreed with her statement re: fear of failure, and then clearly stated my own ideas about when is appropriate.
For your clarification.
Regards,
Adrian
-
Permalink Reply by Michael Ellner on
-
Hey Adrian,
Let's keep it friendly okay?
I have demanded nothing of you--
I didn't say think like me, but It would be nice if you think and compose yourself before you react-
Love and Hugs,
Adrian Tannock said:Michael,
1. I never said there was a scientific measure of hypnosis, and in fact have pointed that out elsewhere on this forum, so again more straw-man fallacy. (FYI - whereas I strive to inform my practice by science as much as possible. I also understand that scientific measure of hypnosis cannot be considered the only measure, as science's comprehension of hypnosis is incomplete; therefore, informing one's practice from other measures, e.g. a phenomenological observation of hypnosis, to me seems wise.)
2. Re: IMRs = Ouija boards. I'd love to hear you debate Ernest Rossi on such matters... Regardless, I reject your assessment of the merit of IMRs in practice as being childish and with no content beyond your typical message board histrionics.
3. Finally, I'll never play the role you demand of me to successfully run your NIGYSOB game; with that thought in mind realise I observe the message-board strategies that seem occur when ppl disagree with you, Michael, with only amused detachment! ;-)
People don't always have to agree with you and no amount of straw man, false generalisations, overlooked alternatives and other fallacies will fool me sunshine!
Cheers, Adrian
Michael Ellner said:
NO! THINK LIKE ME!
- ‹ Previous
- 1
- 2
- 3
- Next ›
Featured Advertising
Latest Activity
Don commented on Don's blog post 'Spontaneous Orgasms and Hypnosis (Revised)'
Suggestive Celine -"The Queen of, James Hazlerig and 3 other members joined Leshem Yosef's group
Don replied to Lorrie Hale-Ozbey's discussion 'NLP and Human Performance Technology'
Seth-Deborah Roth replied to Steve G. Jones's discussion 'Hypnotherapy Regulation'
Roy Hunter replied to Richard Nongard - NLPBoard.com's discussion 'Informed Consent'
Dennis Atkinson replied to Steve G. Jones's discussion 'Hypnotherapy Regulation'
Roy Hunter replied to Steve G. Jones's discussion 'Hypnotherapy Regulation'
© 2012 Created by Scott Sandland.
About Us
Contact Us
Subscribe To RSS