Why-oh-why do I hear so much about regression to cause?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by John Cleesattel on February 25, 2010 at 5:15pm

Duncan,
I am going to answer this again because I didn't focus on the fact that you were not taught the procedure, and your UK University evidently doesn't have much of a clue either. It became clearer why that was when I saw it was given through the psychology department.

Sadly, we have some of the same issues over here with our psychiatrists and psychologists as well

This is not meant with any disrespect, just an observation.
.
I recently read in Time magazine, an article by a man who was plagued by a fear of watching people eat and drink. He ran through the full gambit of psychiatric and psychological interventions...to no avail. He ended the article lamenting that he is resigned to live the rest of his life with it.

I could help him eliminate it in one day, if not one hour. I have tried to contact him but have been unsuccessful so far.

Those that do not use the methodology either think they can teach it, or think they can be an authority on it, such as with Ian Jay, who place more value on the letters behind one's name, than the abilities or capabilities that people have. I have worked with many degreed professionals in the past, I called them...my employees.

To clarify the issue; a client that is regressed DOES NOT have to re-experience the ISE the same way they did the first time.

I can see where this would cause confusion if you thought that they did. Much like the fast phobia cure, the subject is shielded from the event and is told to hover over it but to not engage it.

The whole purpose being to change what originally happened into something with a more positive outcome so that the original programming can be re-written. When it is re-written, the original no longer exists.

John

Permalink Reply by Michael on February 25, 2010 at 5:35pm

Ok, so having a degree doesn't make one a good therapist, and having an amount of specific training in hypnosis/hypnotherapy doesn't make one a good therapist... so the burning question I have is what exactly does make one a good therapist?

Michael Zappellini said:

I agree that regression can be very useful sometimes and I agree that sometimes is not really necessary,
the reason why I intervened is that I am starting to be a little fed up with people who are talking about PHD's psychologists, in a denigrative way like if they were a bunch of imbeciles because they studied 10 years for a degree, I agree that the degree doesn't make u a good therapist, but also 50/100/300/500/1000 hours of hypnotherapy don't make you a good therapist either. Just my 2 upset cents

Yes Michael, confabulated memories can be created by leading the client, both with regression and without. The nature of regression training as I see it is not in the technique itself, but in how to ask open, non-leading questions. While this skill is important in all hypnotic work, it is doubly so when working with a regression. As I understand it, a properly done regression does not change a clients memories, only the interpretation of events.

For example: a client comes in for weight management and I do a regression to cause and discover that my client overeats because he feels lonely/abandoned because his mother (who was a young mother) became frustrated one day and left the apartment, leaving my 2 year old client to fend for himself. My client was already hungry - the crying was what frustrated his mother (he thought) - and now he was alone. So like any adventurous 2 year old, he went to find food because he couldn't find mom. The food made him feel better, for all intents and purposes replacing the loss of his mother. Now, as an adult he was able to look back and realize that his mother had only left for a few minutes, but to a 2 year old, the thought was that mom was gone and never coming back. When his adult self was able to explain to his child self (sounds like parts therapy doesn't it) that yes, mom comes back and he gets to grow up. It doesn't change the fact that mom left him alone, it just allays his (then) fear.

The example is completely hypothetical and I'm sure many people can see both pros and cons for the method presented, which is one of the things I love about forums, you get to learn so much just by comparing "What I would have done is..." stories.

Michael Miller said:

I'm an HMI graduate and they refuse to teach age regression because memories can be created by a led subject.
While I don't practice the technique with clients, I think it has merit. It is a standard hypnotherapy procedure. Because of this, I wonder if undermining hypnosis in general might be the motivation of the querent. John, I like your answer. Very concise. I don't think the answer requires more than that.

Michael Bueti
www.theintegratedperson.com

Permalink Reply by Michael Zappellini on February 25, 2010 at 6:50pm

Knowledge, passion, natural instinct toward helping others, thirst of knowledge, always researching new and best possible way to help others, compassion.
That's what I think makes a good therapist.
my 2 cents

Michael said:

Ok, so having a degree doesn't make one a good therapist, and having an amount of specific training in hypnosis/hypnotherapy doesn't make one a good therapist... so the burning question I have is what exactly does make one a good therapist?

Michael Zappellini said:

I agree that regression can be very useful sometimes and I agree that sometimes is not really necessary,
the reason why I intervened is that I am starting to be a little fed up with people who are talking about PHD's psychologists, in a denigrative way like if they were a bunch of imbeciles because they studied 10 years for a degree, I agree that the degree doesn't make u a good therapist, but also 50/100/300/500/1000 hours of hypnotherapy don't make you a good therapist either. Just my 2 upset cents

Yes Michael, confabulated memories can be created by leading the client, both with regression and without. The nature of regression training as I see it is not in the technique itself, but in how to ask open, non-leading questions. While this skill is important in all hypnotic work, it is doubly so when working with a regression. As I understand it, a properly done regression does not change a clients memories, only the interpretation of events.

For example: a client comes in for weight management and I do a regression to cause and discover that my client overeats because he feels lonely/abandoned because his mother (who was a young mother) became frustrated one day and left the apartment, leaving my 2 year old client to fend for himself. My client was already hungry - the crying was what frustrated his mother (he thought) - and now he was alone. So like any adventurous 2 year old, he went to find food because he couldn't find mom. The food made him feel better, for all intents and purposes replacing the loss of his mother. Now, as an adult he was able to look back and realize that his mother had only left for a few minutes, but to a 2 year old, the thought was that mom was gone and never coming back. When his adult self was able to explain to his child self (sounds like parts therapy doesn't it) that yes, mom comes back and he gets to grow up. It doesn't change the fact that mom left him alone, it just allays his (then) fear.

The example is completely hypothetical and I'm sure many people can see both pros and cons for the method presented, which is one of the things I love about forums, you get to learn so much just by comparing "What I would have done is..." stories.

Michael Miller said:

I'm an HMI graduate and they refuse to teach age regression because memories can be created by a led subject.
While I don't practice the technique with clients, I think it has merit. It is a standard hypnotherapy procedure. Because of this, I wonder if undermining hypnosis in general might be the motivation of the querent. John, I like your answer. Very concise. I don't think the answer requires more than that.

Michael Bueti
www.theintegratedperson.com

Permalink Reply by AJ on February 25, 2010 at 7:03pm

Michael M: It is unfortunate that many hypnosis training programs lack foresight and hinder the progress of their students. Perhaps you can remain open minded to more advanced levels of training. Regression therapy is a very important tool to master if you would like to be one of the top hypnotists in the field.

John: I am amending this section that you wrote: "To clarify the issue; a client that is regressed DOES NOT have to re-experience the ISE the same way they did the first time. I can see where this would cause confusion if you thought that they did. Much like the fast phobia cure, the subject is shielded from the event and is told to hover over it but to not engage it. The whole purpose being to change what originally happened into something with a more positive outcome so that the original programming can be re-written. When it is re-written, the original no longer exists."

What is the purpose of regression hypnotherapy? The primary goal is usually going to be determining root cause. A secondary gain or effect is typically retrieving repressed or unconscious memories. With regression techniques hypnotists are able to help their clients access and release negative energy. And agreed, it does not have to be a painful experience for the client, however the purpose is not to rewrite over the memory. (You appear to be confused here.) The emotions that are held in the seat of memory get released. This is what leads to a "healing" effect.

Michael: What makes a good therapist is practice, lots of it. What makes a great therapist is practicing methods that yield a harvest, i.e. the work he does makes possible the desired results of his clients.

All ways the best,

Dr. Regal
www.regalhypnosis.com
Learn hypnosis. You can do this!

Permalink Reply by James Hazlerig on February 25, 2010 at 8:40pm

I hope that adding this comment won't sidetrack the main thread.

In the past here, I've posted about the connotations of the adjective "lay." It was originally used to denote a preacher or monk who was not ordained as a priest--a lay brother or lay minister. See a priest, according to Catholic doctrine, has the supernatural power to perform the sacraments and do such things as hear confession, absolve sins, and mystically turn wine and wafers into the blood and flesh of a Jew who died a long time ago. The priest gets these powers by means of apostolic succession, in other words a lineage of ordained ministers that traces back (in theory) to Saint Peter.

When academic hypnotists call us "lay hypnotists," they are basically saying that we're not members of the priesthood. We don't have the magical powers they do, and we don't have permission from their god (Academia? Erickson? Freud?) to be doing hypnosis. Any wine we serve is just wine, not holy blood . . .

And that's why I refer to them as "priest hypnotists." :-)

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

James

Sheila M. Street, CH CI T.NLP said:

Ian:

I really dislike pulling this discussion somewhat off track, but your remarks regarding the "degree's" and so-called "lay" hypnotists, didn't have any place here either, except as ego gratification. It implies that those of us who don't fit into your "degree'd" brotherhood are inferior practitioners, and is therefore a smear against probably most practitioners on this site. The term "lay" in the manner you use it, refers to "hobbyists", and I'd say the majority of us, practicing hypnotism daily, are certainly NOT "hobbyists". To make my point, I'm going to briefly quote what Cal Banyon wrote in February 2009:

"It is Time to Completely Reject the Label of “Lay Hypnotist”

I have heard the term “Lay Hypnotist” and completely reject it.

As an interesting aside, I looked in two dictionaries, the Webster’s New World Dictionary: Third College Edition and, and Taber’s Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary, Edition 15, before turning to the internet to find a definition of the word, “lay.” According to National Guild of Hypnotists would stand for being called a “lay hypnotist.”

Certainly there are lay hypnotists, a group of which is made up primarily of hobbyists who casually study hypnosis just out of personal interest. But when the term is most commonly used, it is not these individuals of which others are speaking. Rather the term has been misused and regularly applied to professionals who use hypnosis to help others in their legal practices across the country and around the world. These professionals are often of state licensed schools such as ours. The label of “lay hypnotist,” is most likely to be used by licensed professionals who want to distinguish themselves from hypnotists and hypnotherapists who are not licensed. This is an improper use of the term.

Since hypnosis is most appropriately used to help normal everyday people with normal everyday problems, being licensed as a psychologist or physician is simply not an issue. Furthermore, such licensure does not in any way determine the quality of hypnosis or hypnotherapy that a particular client will experience, or the outcome that they can expect from such services. This is because there is no licensed profession in which hypnotherapy or hypnosis training is ever provided as a regular part of their education. In fact many such professionals have had to seek training outside of their own licensed profession from the very people that they label “lay hypnotists.” I know this is true because I have had many such professionals go through both our NGH Hypnotherapy Certification Course and our Advanced Hypnotherapy Training Course.

So, the idea of calling non-licensed professionals, “lay persons” should be considered a statement made out of ignorance. I for one have studied hypnosis and hypnotherapy extensively, and have received certification from the NGH as a Hypnotherapist, a Board Certified Hypnotherapist, and also carry the title of Fellow of the National Guild of Hypnotists. Although I am not licensed, I also have a BS and MA in Psychology. I have written books and taught on the subject for years now. Should I accept the label of “lay” anything? Should any professional hypnotist or hypnotherapist? Not if they have taken up serious study of the subject and have been properly certified by a respectable organization.

In my opinion, if ignorance of the proper usage of the word “lay” is not at issue, then applying such labels to professional hypnotists and hypnotherapist is designed solely to make others feel or look superior to those who are true professionals in the field of hypnosis.

I say that it is time that Professional Hypnotists and Hypnotherapists around the world wholeheartedly reject this demeaning term and proudly state the truth, we are a profession. Wake up! We have been a profession for quite some time now."

Here is the link for anyone needing to see the original.

Duncan:

Bringing this back to the topic at hand, in his courses, the above quoted individual shows quite succinctly how regression sessions can be done "properly", and with minimal to no trauma to the individual. So, if you can get past the fact that he's a "lay" hypnotist, and actually study his work, you might actually be able to understand "the whole regression thing". There are others out there as well - Roy Hunter, Gerry Kein coming to mind - who teach good regression techniques. So perhaps it doesn't take a University degree to do this properly - and I think in many instances, the university courses tend to stifle the use of regression because they don't really know how to teach it to the level of some of our "lay" hypnotist Instructors.

As to the "why", regression works, and works without the need to traumatise, I believe that several other of the posters here covered that quite well. Sometimes though, the best and most effective way to do hypnosis with your clients is to de-hypnotise yourself from worn out "assumptions" that degrees and universities are required to do it "professionally".

Sincerely,
Sheila M. Street, CH CI, CT.NLP
Hypno-Dynamics

Ian Jay said:

Duncan

Take any answer from any lay 'hypnotherapist' without a degree in Psych, hypnotherapy, or CBT with a large pinch of salt, if you are looking for evidence. Most of the therapists here have no formal or accredited qualification in hypnotherapy, Psych or CBT. And you can ignore a few of the Dr, Doc, Doctor, PhD appendages.

PM if you need clarification.

Although I expect some to try to defend the un-defendable, and excuse the un-exusable, this is my last word.

IJ

Permalink Reply by Henxy on February 26, 2010 at 12:40am

James Hazlerig said:

I hope that adding this comment won't sidetrack the main thread.

See a priest, according to Catholic doctrine, has the supernatural power to perform the sacraments and do such things as hear confession, absolve sins, and mystically turn wine and wafers into the blood and flesh of a Jew who died a long time ago. The priest gets these powers by means of apostolic succession, in other words a lineage of ordained ministers that traces back (in theory) to Saint Peter.

You are incorrect here about your assertions about the Roman Catholic church. I am well-versed in its doctrine, and your comments are rather derisory.

I am not an RC any more, and I object to many RC ideas, but I do not misrepresent the church's teachings and perspectives. There is no connection between the supernatural or the mystic.

There's plenty wrong with it without resorting to that!

I thought better of you, James. :-(

Permalink Reply by Henxy on February 26, 2010 at 12:43am

Who says the ISE is the ISE?
Who says that if you regress a person on different occasions that they won't come up with a different (supposed) ISE?
Why is it not a reason for the problem? Why is it not just a problem that needs resolving, according to the unconscious mind at the point of therapy?

Permalink Reply by Duncan Murray on February 26, 2010 at 2:28am

Thank you Henxy - superb point!

How many hypnos have regressed the client twice for the same problem to check that the ISE is the same? I only ask as the claim is that regression and that session's resultant therapy resolved the issue - very easily too, usually. One hypno over this side of the pond informed me at a peer supervision group meeting that he regressed people with IBS to the 'ISE'!!! What?!?!?!?!

The org I trained with now do a degree course - I do not have a degree in Hyp - just diplomas - however that point was made to establish that the quality of their teaching is degree standard and quality as accredited by a pukka Uni's Psych Dept rather than an unknown quantity - they have also been teaching hypnosis very competently for many years as well as being in practice for many years.

The client is presenting with an appropriate problem such as anxiety/PTSD in the present I do not need to know the sensitising event(s) I just need to help them change their perspective so that it is not a problem - I don't need (or want) to know the details of their rape/sexual assault 15 years ago - just how they are affected in the present - de-sensitise and reprocess - 'simple' :-)

Age regression is somewhat voyeuristic and the whole purpose is to take them back to the seeding event and experience it 'as - if' they were there - not from a dissociated perspective or shielded....you are regressing them to that point in time so that they re-experience it - not revisiting it...which would be the client being back there as an observer. That is a matter of definition.

Doc - I have been comprehensively taught regression techniques and revivication techniques I very occasionally use revisiting techniques so that they are dissociated from any ISE - but I don't regress them - yes false memory syndrome is an issue and leading questions must be avoided. Also my clients with ISEs do not generally want to be regressed - they want it resolved in the present to make both their present and future better - not falsely make their past better than they know it to have been.

The issue of the fictional 2 year old and food leading to overeating, given by Michael, is more suitable to revisiting - not making them a 2 year old again.

Isn't it safer and more ethical to resolve the issues in the 'here and now' when their issues are causing them to see a therapist rather than the 'there and then' when they weren't?

Permalink Reply by Duncan Murray on February 26, 2010 at 2:43am

Sorry - not specifically...it seems to me that hypno-analyst schools go for the abreactive therapy approach - the ethics of intending to cause upset are a mystery to me - if abreactions occur spontaneously then I manage them - I won't set out to cause them.

Ian Jay said:

Duncan

As a matter of interest, what is the present view on regressing to abreaction (abreactive therapy)?
Did your training touch on it?

Ian

Permalink Reply by Henxy on February 26, 2010 at 3:48am

Duncan Murray said:

One hypno over this side of the pond informed me at a peer supervision group meeting that he regressed people with IBS to the 'ISE'!!! What?!?!?!?!

Oh. So THAT'S where I'm going wrong! ;-P

Duncan Murray said:'simple' :-) I hear you, Meerkat!

Permalink Reply by Duncan Murray on February 26, 2010 at 3:57am

Ahhhh! My middle name is actually Alexander!

Henxy said:

Duncan Murray said:

One hypno over this side of the pond informed me at a peer supervision group meeting that he regressed people with IBS to the 'ISE'!!! What?!?!?!?!

Oh. So THAT'S where I'm going wrong! ;-P

Duncan Murray said:'simple' :-) I hear you, Meerkat!

Permalink Reply by John Cleesattel on February 26, 2010 at 4:15am

Mr Regal,
Please feel free to amend what you choose. If you only use regression to find root cause, and then do nothing about it, that is your prerogative. The confusion appears to be yours and yours alone. To me, a suitable metaphor for what you suggest would be digging up a leaking water pipe, finding the leak, and then trying to fix it by adding sealant at the water department. It sound more like a gestalt.

So, let me educate you. The value of doing regression work in trance is not only being able to access long term memory, but also is that the critical factor itself is dormant.

This means the subject doesn't know that what they are experiencing during trance isn't real, so when you change the outcome to a more positive one, even to the extreme of having a super-hero flying in to save the day...(which I actually use when doing children) the original learning is over-written, thus changing the associated reaction (feeling).

It doesn't change what really happened in the past, or even their memory of it, it just changes how they feel about it. The concept is called "de-sensitization". I hope you are taking notes :)

John

Doc Regal said:

John: I am amending this section that you wrote: "To clarify the issue; a client that is regressed DOES NOT have to re-experience the ISE the same way they did the first time. I can see where this would cause confusion if you thought that they did. Much like the fast phobia cure, the subject is shielded from the event and is told to hover over it but to not engage it. The whole purpose being to change what originally happened into something with a more positive outcome so that the original programming can be re-written. When it is re-written, the original no longer exists." What is the purpose of regression hypnotherapy? The primary goal is usually going to be determining root cause. A secondary gain or effect is typically retrieving repressed or unconscious memories. With regression techniques hypnotists are able to help their clients access and release negative energy. And agreed, it does not have to be a painful experience for the client, however the purpose is not to rewrite over the memory. (You appear to be confused here.) The emotions that are held in the seat of memory get released. This is what leads to a "healing" effect.
All ways the best,

Dr. Regal
www.regalhypnosis.com
Learn hypnosis. You can do this!

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