Why-oh-why do I hear so much about regression to cause?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Duncan Murray on March 3, 2010 at 6:28am

Ah John

My confusion was over the over-use of regression...imho there is a significant difference between the two...

you reinforced a perceived ignorance of proper usages of the technique, and quite frankly, still do.

Hartland's Medical and Dental Hypnosis, 3rd Edition Waxman 1989 p 282 will clarify this for you' Many practitioners will call this regression. It is not regression at all. It is simply going back and remembering....If Instructed specifically to be a certain age again or relive a particular event, then in true regression he will be there and will speak in the present tense'

Humbly, not a Time Lord

Duncan

John Cleesattel said:

Then I would humbly recommend that in the future, you not post the topic of a discussion that says you are confused, and ask someone to explain why.

Granted there are some applications where regression is not called for. It is not a universal fix for everything, although some people think that some techniques are.

From the claims you made, you reinforced a perceived ignorance of proper usages of the technique, and quite frankly, still do.

If you don't want to know, don't ask :)

I am sure we all get it now that you won't even accept guidance on how to improve your technique, so there is no further help I can offer you. So I will no longer try.

with deepest sympathy
John

Permalink Reply by John Cleesattel on March 3, 2010 at 10:06am

"Age Regression in hypnosis, has the subject access long term memory and go back to an event in a specific time and place in the subject's past. It utilizes the imagination to facilitate re-experiencing the time and place in all facets, the subject will relive it just as it happened the first time, unless restrictive instructions are given. Instructions such as to not relive the scene, but to just observe it right before the specific event.

As an intervention to desensitize unpleasant feelings that were learned by a specific event, the subject is regressed to the point of initial sensitizing (ISE) and is instructed to back up to just before it happened. Then is instructed to re-experience the event, and live it with a specified more positive outcome. Since the level of trance state that the subject is in has caused what is known as "the critical factor" (the part of the mind that tells us what is real and true) to become dormant and non-functional; to the subject, the re-experiencing of the event with the improved outcome, is accepted as real, and new learning replaces the original learning, and the corresponding original reaction to the event is desensitized.

It is important to note that upon emerging the subject, that they will still have full recollection of the event the way it originally happened, but the emotional significance (or original programmed reaction) is no longer there. They say it's like they watched it on TV."

Excerpted from: The Nature of Hypnotherapy: by John Cleesattel - to be released for the reference of others: 2010.

Time Lord John

Duncan Murray said:

Ah John
My confusion was over the over-use of regression...imho there is a significant difference between the two...
you reinforced a perceived ignorance of proper usages of the technique, and quite frankly, still do.

Hartland's Medical and Dental Hypnosis, 3rd Edition Waxman 1989 p 282 will clarify this for you' Many practitioners will call this regression. It is not regression at all. It is simply going back and remembering....If Instructed specifically to be a certain age again or relive a particular event, then in true regression he will be there and will speak in the present tense'

Humbly, not a Time Lord

Duncan

John Cleesattel said:

Then I would humbly recommend that in the future, you not post the topic of a discussion that says you are confused, and ask someone to explain why.

Granted there are some applications where regression is not called for. It is not a universal fix for everything, although some people think that some techniques are. From the claims you made, you reinforced a perceived ignorance of proper usages of the technique, and quite frankly, still do.

If you don't want to know, don't ask :)

I am sure we all get it now that you won't even accept guidance on how to improve your technique, so there is no further help I can offer you. So I will no longer try.

with deepest sympathy
John

Permalink Reply by John Cleesattel on March 3, 2010 at 11:14am

Turns out to be fact Ian, when doing the research, I go by what the experts say. It was unanimous.

When I found out that the majority of those with a psychology background really didn't know that much about how the mind really worked, then just like with hypnosis, I was forced to do my own research.

These are not just idle opinion generated statements I make.

If I use regression on 100 clients, desensitize their issues as previously stated, interview them before, during, and after the process, and I get 100% confirmation...guess what...

My systems analyst background does not allow for hearsay or I think... true is true only when it can be demonstrated and repeated. You have control of a process when the outcome is sustainable and repeatable without defectives.

I am as much a prove it to me kind of guy as the next person. I don't care what the opinion was that someone else wrote in a book (I will soon have my own book). I want to know how and why. If how and why isn't presented, then it is opinion. When I find out how and why, I spread the word. Those with ears let them hear.

John

Ian Jay said:

John C
.. the subject will relive it just as it happened the first time ... / ...they will still have full recollection of the event the way it originally happened.
Fact or fiction classification, John? Memory does not work that way, as much as we may wish it did. We have chunks of perception that are easily manipulated, and universally unreliable.

IJ

Permalink Reply by John Cleesattel on March 3, 2010 at 4:34pm

What I do has nothing to do with what you are referring to with past memory implantation. I really don't think it does concern you that much, to be honest.

Nobel prize eh? well one never knows...do they..

If it matters, I actually used this technique while I was over at Hugh Cole's place last year. Some of us had gotten together to practice some instant inductions and one of the people had issues with doing it in front of people, including just us. (Kind of a major issue if you are going to do street hypnosis with it, which was the eventual goal).

While investigating, we found out it was an incident they had experience in school while growing up. This one event, where something wrong was said, that followed them the rest of their time in school, and caused much anguish for them.
They said in tears that if they could only go back and undo that one thing, to not have said what they did, everything would have been different.

So I enabled that. I took them back to just before it happened; and then when they spoke the thing they shouldn't have, there was a large crash as a bookcase fell over....and nobody heard what they said. When asked what was going on then, they said the students were looking around trying to figure out why the bookcase fell over, no one had heard.

Emerging them revealed a much happier person, who could now think of doing hypnosis in front of others with very little issues. They still remembered the incident as it originally happened, but it wasn't an issue any more. They proceeded to do an instant induction afterward in front of us and said they were still a little nervous, but it was because they hadn't practiced much and not because of the past issue.

John

Ian Jay said:

What concerns me, John, is that memory, with or without hypnosis is an area that is constantly being researched. It is very easy to set up repeatable and verifiable trials and studies, and demonstrate the results. This being the case, there is a Noble prize waiting for the person who can demonstrate what you claim.

This past memory nonsense is unethical and can be dangerous, imo. Remember false memory syndrome and all the supposed victims of sexual abuse? Deny the science today, but don't complain tomorrow when the legislatures ban you from practicing.

IJ

Permalink Reply by Jonathan Chase on March 3, 2010 at 4:51pm

Hi John,

John Cleesattel said:

So I enabled that. I took them back to just before it happened;

No you didn't. You took them into their imagination and allowed them to imagine. They didn't go anywhere, unless of course there was a strange shimmering and they started to fade into incandecence as all the clocks in the place began to run backwards and sheets from a calendar flipped over at 700 miles an hour.....

The thing is what if they had imagined a time when everything had turned out to be ten times worse than they thought it had been? I bet you said things like "Nothing will harm you." "You won't get upset." Blah blah. No intead you inforced a false memory, okay, so why do the going back thing. Why not just say, "And as you go deeper you know for sure what you think hapened did not and everything when I wzke you up will be settled and sorted and you will have a great life from this time forward knowing absolutely you said not harmful or hurtful."

No 'going back' is needed. I'm not saying you should have said that, just you could have.

It's working in metaphor, it isn't anything else at all no matter how much you try and make it so.

Personally I'm stopping following this thread now. It's become tedious.

Permalink Reply by John Cleesattel on March 3, 2010 at 5:05pm

Thank you. It matters not. See how the embellishments grow?

Jonathan Chase said:

Hi John,
> Personally I'm stopping following this thread now. It's become tedious.

Permalink Reply by Duncan Murray on March 4, 2010 at 4:58am

With pleasure Ian - should make it all clear

(Chronic Anxiety and Endogenous Anxiety) ... 'Before the latter develop however the anxiety level of the patient can be reduced by regular sessions of hypnotherapy involving the technique utilized in reactive anxiety and additionally the more traditional method of dynamic exploration may be introduced. It is best to leave most of the talking to the patient In this way he will more likely recall events from the past which he considers to be to blame for his symptoms. Many practitioners will call this regression. It is not regression at all. It is usually simply remembering The patient, in hypnosis, is asked to go back to events earlier in life and talk about them. He will usually with the words 'I remember...' If Instructed specifically to be a certain age again or relive a particular event, then in true regression he will be there and will speak in the present tense'

page 283 ...'This is true regression. The patient is there, he is reliving the situation and memories of events which have been repressed are more likely to surface. Not only may memories be recalled but also the emotional aspects of that particular event and which might be responsible for the presenting symptoms...'

I 'ain't no Waxman - I'm not the author of The Medical and Dental Hypnosis 'Bible' but those words seem darn clear to me...'might be responsible'!!!

Ian Jay said:

Duncan

Hartland's Medical and Dental Hypnosis, 3rd Edition Waxman 1989 p 282 will clarify this for you' Many practitioners will call this regression. It is not regression at all. It is simply going back and remembering....If Instructed specifically to be a certain age again or relive a particular event, then in true regression he will be there and will speak in the present tense'

I don't have this tome. Will you kindly post the paragraph(s) before that explain what is meant by 'this', as in
' Many practitioners will call this regression.'?

BTW, I have Kroger's 'Clinical and Experimental Hypnosis: In Medicine, Dentistry, and Psychology'

Thanks

IJ

Permalink Reply by Michael Ellner on March 4, 2010 at 5:10am

How is this for a monkey wrench?

What is the evidence for repressed memories --

In my "limited" experience with Vets, victims of violent crimes and abuse the victims of these serious traumas remember their experiences all to well?

Just asking...

Best,
Michael E.
Duncan Murray said:

With pleasure Ian - should make it all clear
(Chronic Anxiety and Endogenous Anxiety) ... 'Before the latter develop however the anxiety level of the patient can be reduced by regular sessions of hypnotherapy involving the technique utilized in reactive anxiety and additionally the more traditional method of dynamic exploration may be introduced. It is best to leave most of the talking to the patient In this way he will more likely recall events from the past which he considers to be to blame for his symptoms. Many practitioners will call this regression. It is not regression at all. It is usually simply remembering The patient, in hypnosis, is asked to go back to events earlier in life and talk about them. He will usually with the words 'I remember...' If Instructed specifically to be a certain age again or relive a particular event, then in true regression he will be there and will speak in the present tense'
page 283 ...'This is true regression. The patient is there, he is reliving the situation and memories of events which have been repressed are more likely to surface. Not only may memories be recalled but also the emotional aspects of that particular event and which might be responsible for the presenting symptoms...'

I 'ain't no Waxman - I'm not the author of The Medical and Dental Hypnosis 'Bible' but those words seem darn clear to me...'might be responsible'!!!

Ian Jay said:

Duncan

Hartland's Medical and Dental Hypnosis, 3rd Edition Waxman 1989 p 282 will clarify this for you' Many practitioners will call this regression. It is not regression at all. It is simply going back and remembering....If Instructed specifically to be a certain age again or relive a particular event, then in true regression he will be there and will speak in the present tense' I don't have this tome. Will you kindly post the paragraph(s) before that explain what is meant by 'this', as in
' Many practitioners will call this regression.'?

BTW, I have Kroger's 'Clinical and Experimental Hypnosis: In Medicine, Dentistry, and Psychology'

Thanks

IJ

Permalink Reply by Duncan Murray on March 4, 2010 at 5:16am

I think in that part Waxman was talking about 'little traumas' - the example given was Mr Smith was regressed to 5 and he wasn't allowed a birthday party because he had been naughty...In 'big traumas' I often find people have forgotten/repressed certain aspects of what happened...and they do that with desensitisation and reprocessing - regression is not necessary or desirable.

Michael Ellner said:

How is this for a monkey wrench...

What is the evidence for repressed memories --

In my "limited" experience with veterns, victims of violent crimes, and abuse the victims of these serious traumas remember their experiences all to well?

Just asking...

Best,
Michael E.

Permalink Reply by Michael Ellner on March 4, 2010 at 6:13am

A possible explanation, perhaps?


Yes -- It is a possible explanation

Thanks,


Ian Jay said:

Micheal

In my "limited" experience with Vets, victims of violent crimes and abuse the victims of these serious traumas remember their experiences all to well?

Good question!

I think that we all have 'special' memories that will stay with us forever. Times or moments of pleasure - our first sexual experience, for instance; times of terror - when we feared we were going to drown, etc. Usually, these two examples are very private memories that under normal circumstances we would not share.

Masturbation, for instance, in the absence of a physical sexual trigger requires remembering a sexual experience. However, remembering being raped, or sexually abused as a child for instance, gives us no pleasure, so we 'bury' the memory. If the rape or abuse was unreported and kept a secret, then the longer it remains buried - the more difficult it is to talk about it. Feelings of shame, guilt, and embarrassment develop, perhaps?

However, if you create a situation where the victim is no longer responsible for their actions, like a hypnotherapy session, then the victim is more inclined to talk about their history. Its as if you have removed the script writer from the scene and replaced them with the actor.

A possible explanation, perhaps?

Permalink Reply by Duncan Murray on March 5, 2010 at 2:36am

Thanks for all the postings/thoughts but I think this has run the distance now...

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