Are Hypnotic Trances a Unique Altered State or A Normal State of Absortion? Hypnosis Professionals of all levels of practice and persuasions are welcome to participate

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by John Cleesattel on July 17, 2010 at 9:47am

Mike,
Thanks for the offer to review my book, but I have been Jim Jonesed by you enough thank you.

I do know the truth :) and am just trying to spread the word. Over the last two years, I have shared the majority of whats in my book with HT in the discussions. The only reason I even charge for the book is because I have learned "free = no value".

Ignorant Naysayers are those who criticize without knowing about what they are criticizing. Your offer to read my book, which means you haven't, and your statement that you would love to learn more about it, versus what you have been posting, seems to confirm this.

Fortunately, negative publicity, like I get from you, works in my favor. Like when the Catholic Church first tried to ban a movie for being sinful, in some places the lines went for 3 blocks. It gets people to look and question, and that's all I am after.

I don't point at what I've done and call it, or me, "expert". I have yet to use that term in reference to myself, anywhere. I usually point to what I have done and say "check it out and prove it to yourself" here are some examples.

The one time I even came close to violating this was in response to one of your more pompous postings where I called myself the world's foremost authority on hypnosis. "Let me reintroduce myself" ROFLMAO. This was in response to you belittling other posters because you felt they lacked the "seasoning" to be blessed with the privileged of posting a response in that discussion thread.

Please, keep being who you are Michael, I can use the publicity.
John - full of beans



Michael Ellner said:

Hey John-
I have been bumping heads with some of the mostly highly regarded trainers in the field of hypnosis for more than 25 years. One can review my posts on HT.com and see that I actively urge newly certified and seasoned hypnosis professional to think and practice outside of their trainings and experience. As I read and re-read the posts in this thread - It seems to me that you post just like the people that you are criticizing... Just re-read this thread. You present yourself as one of those "Experts" who know the truth! -- You map is the absolute map! The people who disagree with you are ignorant naysayers or just don't know. I say here as I have said 1000s of times before - When any one says they have discovered the "truth" or suggests that their way is "the" way -- "I believe that they are full of beans" It's not personal and I stand by my statement.

You wrote:
"The bottom line is that it doesn't matter how it all really works, as long as you can use it effectively, as the "well seasoned" ones can attest to."

Yes, I think that many well seasoned hypnosis professionals would agree - I do and I would love to learn more about how it works

I can see that you developed a model that "jives" with some hypnosis practitioners on HT.com. When people are in tune with the models and tools that they are using they automatically become more effective - It does not prove that you mapped the entire hypnosis/trance mechanism, and how the mind works in association with hypnosis without a doubt.

FYI - I searched my email files and I could not find the email that you say you sent me. It is possible your email wound up in my spam folder and was unknowingly deleted.

For the record, I am happy to read your book and review it on HT.com with the understanding that like James, I call em like I see em*

"Survey" science is only as good as the researcher conducting the research, the actual survey questions, the protocol used to collect the data and the expertise of the person evaluating the data. So, if you would like me to review your e-book please include copies of your protocol, questionnaire and your CV.

Michael E.

* The Nature of Trance by John Cleesattel (review by James Hazlerig) - HypnoThoughts.com

Permalink Reply by John Cleesattel on July 17, 2010 at 9:54am

Walt,
This is very good. :)

John

Walt Potter said:

Hugh and All,

"Hypnosis as the process ..... and a "special" form of trance as the result" so I think of the trance induced by an effective hypnotic process as a state of acceptable selective focus and a bypass of the critical faculty"

I like this very much. For me the separation between the process, hypnosis, and the goal state, that special form of trance, is very, very useful. Of course, there is an ongoing interplay between the trance state and the process of hypnosis.

While this is over simplified for sure, it's something I can guide my study with:

the process of hypnosis
leading to the
special trance states
along with
the interplay between the process and the states.

As a beginner, the basic process, the basic special states have been easier to grasp. I think that it is the understanding and command of the ongoing interplay between the process and the states that separates the functional hypnotist from those who are very good.

Walt

Permalink Reply by Hugh Cole on July 17, 2010 at 1:33pm

Well Thank you Walt, I am glad you enjoyed my little model so much. Of course the interplay between the processes and the states is subject again to a very simple rule .... Practice Practise Practise ... Play Play Play.


Hugh Cole
The Pretty Goodest Hypnotist on the Planet.

Permalink Reply by Michael Ellner on July 17, 2010 at 2:35pm

Excuse me-- John,

You have been posting your ideas for more than two years and I have been reading them for more than two years.

For the record, I have been criticizing your "I know the truth" statements and your claim that you have mapped the entire workings of the inner-mind, period statements (See below).

You were displaying the kind of certianty found in cult leaders and fanatics - I didn't say that I thought that you were a cult leader or fanatic - I said you were posting like one...

But, enough of our side talk --

Michael E.

John Cleesattel said:

Mike,
Thanks for the offer to review my book, but I have been Jim Jonesed by you enough thank you.

I do know the truth :) and am just trying to spread the word. Over the last two years, I have shared the majority of whats in my book with HT in the discussions. The only reason I even charge for the book is because I have learned "free = no value".

Ignorant Naysayers are those who criticize without knowing about what they are criticizing. Your offer to read my book, which means you haven't, and your statement that you would love to learn more about it, versus what you have been posting, seems to confirm this.

Permalink Reply by Michael Ellner on July 17, 2010 at 3:03pm

@ Hugh and Walt--

A) "If hypnosis is the process ..... and a "special" form of trance is the result"
What is trance?
Why do you believe hypnosis is a special form of trance?

B) Although, many hypnosis practitioners incorrectly believe that the hypnotic state is found in Alpha, Theta or Alpha/Theta brain wave states, a signature physiological/neurologic state of hypnosis has yet to be discovered.

Do you agree that the word "state" has more than one meaning? I think both of you are talking about hypnosis as a metaphorical "state" of mind instead of a physiological/neurologic "state"-- Is that right? Does using the word "state" confuse or clarify?

C) If a hypnosis subject, client or patient is actively participating and following your instructions what is the basis for your belief that hypnosis involves the bypassing their "critical faculty?"

Just asking...

Michael E.


Walt Potter said:

Hugh and All,

"Hypnosis as the process ..... and a "special" form of trance as the result" so I think of the trance induced by an effective hypnotic process as a state of acceptable selective focus and a bypass of the critical faculty"

I like this very much. For me the separation between the process, hypnosis, and the goal state, that special form of trance, is very, very useful. Of course, there is an ongoing interplay between the trance state and the process of hypnosis.

While this is over simplified for sure, it's something I can guide my study with:

the process of hypnosis
leading to the
special trance states
along with
the interplay between the process and the states.

As a beginner, the basic process, the basic special states have been easier to grasp. I think that it is the understanding and command of the ongoing interplay between the process and the states that separates the functional hypnotist from those who are very good.

Walt

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