Stage Hypnosis Safety and the Insurance industry

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Permalink Reply by Bob Brown, CHt, CNLP on May 10, 2008 at 2:02am

I guess one thing I don't understand Lee is, if this is all your Intellectual Property then why aren't you suing the heck out of everyone infringing on your copyright? It would seem to me if you put a cloud on title as to the rights this initiative stops dead in its tracks.

I keep reading your statement that you are the founder and owner... I trust those are true facts, then stand up and stop it and protect your own rights.

Maybe I am completely missing something.

bob

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Permalink Reply by Richard Nongard - HypnosisGurus.com on May 10, 2008 at 8:52am

edit

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Permalink Reply by Brian David Phillips on May 11, 2008 at 10:32pm

I'm no lawyer and I assume Lee has consulted one (from his earlier post regarding teaching a session of his course "on advice of councel") but, from what he's posted, Lee doesn't seem to have an copyright case here, at least not as yet from what has been posted (he did post that he believed there might be a case but that based on the topic of Susan's course rather than on seeing her course (which he posted was as yet unwritten and therefore could not be a copyright violation). When I write a book or paper that I hope to be comprehensive, I do my best to get a hold of anything and everything previously written on the subject and I would certainly expect anyone else to do likewise. I also include a bibliography that lists the works I consulted or that were significant in the formation of my ideas. It is only copyright violation if someone has taken Lee's work and plagiarized (used his words but put their name on it) or has quoted with or without attribution far more extensively than fair use allows. If Susan's course is unwritten then it would be impossible for her to be in copyright violation at this point. Trademark would be another matter. Lee's claims are not that he owns the concept of stage hypnosis safety training but that he has written what he characterizes as the "first" ebook on the subject. Unless he's seen her materials, Lee's concerns about copyright seem more speculative than substantial . . . at least at this point. Of course, while that issue is certainly a serious one, it is not the meat of the thread.

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Permalink Reply by Justin James on May 11, 2008 at 11:07pm

Brian there is not one doubt in my mind that you are a prolific writer and a computer junkie like some of us are, however Susan did get his materials shortly before the letter from Stephanie came out, and refused to return his calls after she got the material by approaching him as a friend. So that certainly raises the specter of plagiary. On top of that her course was finished shortly after and was presented here in Vegas to a small audience who could purchase her course for 3000.00

Now Susan kept behind closed doors and refused to answer the issues brought up against her, and now specialty insurance has threatened to discontinue all insurance for all hypnotists

So no matter how you look at this there have been many actions on the part of the Company and Susan Rosen that have been less then ethical.. Even though the safety program is a great idea and there have been many of us who have offered it for free to straighten this out. Mrs Weiss has said no.

In fact she has stated that we must go through Susan or not get insured....

The reality is it is time for alternatives, not to beat a dead horse that has been created by Susan and now Barry is chasing windmills attempting to help people who do not want help.

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Permalink Reply by Paul Knight on May 12, 2008 at 5:02am

Brain is right on this one. Up to this point there has been no copyright violation. Lee's comments are warnings and concerns. I presume his comments are intended to avoid possible lawsuits, not cause them.

Right now, much of our information has come from rumors and hearsay. All we know as fact is that Stephanie wants stage hypnotists to take a safety course. So far, there have been no objections to that from anyone. We know that a safety course that has been recommended (selected?) is a not yet finalized course by Sue Rosen. We also know Sue held a meeting with some hypnotists offering them a chance to be trainers for the course. Those are the known facts.

What we do not know is the motivation behind the meeting, why Sue's course was chosen, what Sue's course will be like, how it will be offered, how much it will cost or other details such as the specific legal implications of the course. Until we know this, we must be careful not to jump to conclusions.

Based on the rumors and few known facts there are valid concerns about conflicts of interest, profiteering and possible insurance regulation and copyright violations. But none of this has happened yet and may never happen. Until something actually occurs the issues are only talking points.

It is very probable that Sue and Stephanie have been taking these concerns into consideration and will make sure they are addressed satisfactorily. Until we have more facts, while we are certainly welcome to express our concerns, we must limit our emotions and actions to what is known not what is presumed.

Permalink Reply by Justin James on May 12, 2008 at 6:42am

Paul it is a strange feature of hypnothoughts that you can respond to a discussion mid stream versus at the end.
You can read the update at the top of the page and also read the last few pages to get a better grasp if you have not already.
As for facts and rumors on this matter I have been shoehorned in to a position of being a industry advocate. Not necessarily what I was looking for however I was not going to end up in the middle of my show season without insurance because of this nightmare.

As to what has been reported currently 99% is fact.
There is and has been very little rumor the information received and reported on has been direct from Specialty insurance, and the people who have attended the meeting in Vegas.

I have said before and will again that if they wish to come forward and speak that they can otherwise I will just report the facts that are needed for the community so that they have an understanding of what has happened that so directly impacts us.

Please note in my previous response to Brian that the "specter of plagiary" has been raised it has not been confirmed.

As to the course it has been finished there is a book and curriculum.

Had you read through everything, Susan and Stephanie did not take precautions instead they attempted to force a safety program on their insured base make it Hypnotist specific and then charge a fee that was more then the actual insurance!

I can list everything yet again that is in the top of this discussion board.

However the most simple of facts remain.

Many in the community stepped forward to address this issue. independently Mrs Weiss received many calls imploring her to change how she had set this up.
Many of us offered to put together a course that was then web based and impartial. we volunteered to do this for free so as to end this debacle and make it so that no one hypnotist who was directly booking against us for venues was in charge of whether or not we could get insurance.

Mrs Weiss not only said no. She was also insistent that we follow Susan Rosen or not have insurance.
she had also threatened to cancel insurance for all hypnotists.

So Paul hearsay and rumors we do not have.

We have a problem.

And the problem has a solution.


Justin James

Permalink Reply by Lee Darrow on May 12, 2008 at 6:28am

Brian, the real legal issues, aside from a possible copyright one, obviously, are:

Unfair competitive practices to gain unfair advantage in the marketplace;

Conflict of interest.

The first being the creation of a position that allows her SOLE powers of what amounts to discretionary allowance of insurability for the entire stage hypnosis field while competing IN that field. Such a creation is the gaining of an unfair advantage in the business and, as such, is not allowed under US law as I understand it and have been counseled to believe.

The second being the possible use of her position as the SOLE certifying individual in the field who is also competing for the SAME jobs as the REST of us constituting a conflict of interest. Under US insurance law, that kind of conflict is STRICTLY prohibited as I have geen given to understand both by my training in the insurance field and by counsel.

In point of fact, it was an allegation of this same kind of conflict of interest that forced the closing of the only State Licensed hypnosis school in Indiana as I understand the situation as it was owned by the spouse of the Director of the State Board of Examiners for Hypnosis Licensing. The only difference, seemingly, in this case is that the conflict resides within one person, instead of a married couple.

Hence, the program, as being required by Specialty Insurance Agency, as it currently stands to my understanding of it, seems to clearly violate these two regulations.

You are right, my copyright concerns are a minor issue in this matter. The real problems with this whole initiative are, as shown, above - the conflict of interest problem and the unfair business advantage issue, along with the third problem that is specific to Specialty Insurance Agency and, possibly, the insurance company which would be underwriting the policies - that of not having properly vetted the educational program through the various State's Commissioners of Insurance, as required by both regulation and law.

Those three points, on their own, are serious causes for concern in all corners and should be reviewed by the proper individuals and authorities that are directly involved, in my professional and personal opinion.

While I have not, as yet, filed ANY formal complaints with any State agencies or insurance companies, my limited dealings with Ms. Weiss were not particularly productive and Susan Rosen has, in essence, refused to return my calls and emails on ANY topic.

However, in an INFORMAL discussion with the Office of the Commissioner of Insurance for the State of Wisconsin, where both Specialty Insurance Agency and Indiana Insurance Company reside, NO filing for approval of ANY hypnosis safety course had been made as of 8 days ago, according to the Commissioner's personal Secretary. Said Secretary also expressed serious concerns that the proper channels had NOT been followed in this matter by the unnamed insurance agency (I did NOT mention ANY names to her). So proper protocols have evidently NOT been followed, at least as recently as about one week ago.

Should this situation continue much longer, however, I will be bound by the legal and ethical requirements under which I am licensed in Illinois to file statements regarding what I have witnessed in this matter with a number of State's Commissioners of insurance or risk losing my licenses, stiff fines and even possible jail time.

Needless to say, I am NOT willing to have any of those penalties come down on me over this and will take whatever steps the State requires of me to keep that from happening.

Lee Darrow, C.H.

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Permalink Reply by Brian David Phillips on May 12, 2008 at 7:27am

"Brian, the real legal issues, aside from a possible copyright one, obviously, are: Unfair competitive practices to gain unfair advantage in the marketplace; Conflict of interest. . . . . You are right, my copyright concerns are a minor issue in this matter."

My post to which you are replying was directed solely toward Bob's question regarding the copyright issue as I understood it - which seems to be correct at the moment. As to the other issues, we have already discussed them as fully as they're going to be discussed without new information or developments.

Permalink Reply by Paul Knight on May 12, 2008 at 8:30am

This reply is meant as a response to Justin's post, but for some reason I cannot respond directly to his post.

As to what has been reported currently 99% is fact.
There is and has been very little rumor the information received and reported on has been direct from Specialty insurance, and the people who have attended the meeting in Vegas.

I disagree. I will detail below what I consider to be rumors and hearsay to clarify my position.

To be completely clear, just because it is a rumor does not make it false. It just means there is no hard evidence supporting the statement. Hearsay, for the uninitiated, means you are repeating something someone told you but you cannot substantiate yourself. Again, it may be a true statement, but the person reporting it cannot directly confirm it.

None of this should suggest in any way that Justin is liar or rumormonger. He is reporting the information to the best of his ability and I applaud it. But people seem to be preparing to take action based on incomplete information. (That statement is a projection on my part. It is not fact.) Wrong action could have serious consequences and the facts need to be clarified:

Justin's earlier post suggests a "secret meeting". At least one person has refuted that. They say it was a "selective meeting". There is a difference. Justin has claimed people are saying this is a scam. That is hearsay and that statement has been disputed.

Had you read through everything, Susan and Stephanie did not take precautions instead they attempted to force a safety program on their insured base make it Hypnotist specific and then charge a fee that was more then the actual insurance!

We do not yet know the official cost. It appears to be tentatively set at $295, but nothing is official. Neither is the $3000 fee to be a "licensed" instructor of the course. That could change.

As to the course it has been finished there is a book and curriculum.

Has anyone other than Sue or Stephanie seen the finished product? Until we see the material that will actually be used, everything about it is a rumor or hearsay.

[Stephanie] had also threatened to cancel insurance for all hypnotists.

I could find no record of Stephanie actually stating this. I have seen several posts of people reporting that she might do this, but no evidence from Stephanie herself. Again, rumor and hearsay.

In the general opinion of this group, Stephanie and Sue have not satisfactorily explained their logic about why they are doing what they are doing. Silence does not equal guilt. We are all projecting why they have not offered a satisfactory explanation. That makes all of our guesses rumors.

In my opinion, we have a lot of sabre-rattling going on. That has made a lot of people on all sides nervous. When people get nervous people tend to act less than rationally. In that case, there could be serious consequences for all of us. What I am saying is take a deep breath, slow down and take a careful look at what are facts and what are rumors. From my perspective, I see less facts and a lot of projection going on. That is not going help resolve this.

We need to keep our emotions and fears out of this. Certainly prepare for the worst and hope that all the preparation becomes unnecessary. However, preparation is not action. Until we know more, patience may be our best virtue.

Permalink Reply by Ray Thompson on April 28, 2008 at 9:21am

I am glad Lee Darrow told me about your community here after my "rant" on the stagehypnosis@yahoo.com newsgroup.
I think a lot of Stephanie Weiss. She and her father, Joe, have worked very hard for all entertainers. This is especially true in regards to stage hypnotists. I think safety training is a good idea, and I spend a good deal of time on the subject with my students. I called Stephanie when I received my renewal notice to inquire about the class. My alarm bells went off when she told me only Susan Rosen's training (still to be written) was acceptable and that Susan's expertise was "She has been a hypnotherapist since 1978." I am sure most of you know what a problem developed in the state of Indiana concerning state certification of hypnotherapists.

I would like to think any agency, or insurance company, would back any reasonable safety training program. that they would want to encourage as many people as possible to take the class by making it as accessible and affordable as possible. You take this $295 price tag, add airfare to Las Vegas, room for 2 nights (airline schedules being what they are), and meals you are approaching $1000.

Having attending 100's of safety classes in 25 years in the military and conducted more than a few of them I can tell you these need to be presented at the "familiarization with the material" level only. An Internet class with a test that shows you have a basic understanding of the safety issues surrounding stage hypnosis performances fulfills that. A fee of $50 for managing the program and providing a certificate would be very fair.

I am willing to support any practical and fair solution to this problem. I would especially like to see some solution prior to my next class in June.

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Permalink Reply by Stephanie Weiss on April 29, 2008 at 4:48am

Over the past three weeks I’ve had the opportunity to talk to many of you about our safety course. Most of you have expressed that the course is a great idea that supports your customer performance safety as well as managing your ultimate cost of insurance and business risks. However, there are also a few who have concerns surrounding the requirement to attend to maintain your membership in the association, as well as the need to certify such a program.

In researching with both State and Federal authorities, should the Performers of the US require certification of a considered professional designation, then our educational platform would need to be filed and approved with the specific government jurisdictions. This was not our original intent, but rather to offer a valued seminar that addresses informational safety training and ideas, along with examples of loss exposures that have resulted in large losses.

The most important issue all of you addressed with us in our discussions was a safe working environment for your customers and you at a competitive cost of insurance. Our safety seminar will address all of these issues as well as others many of you have concerns about. We are sure you will find it very rewarding during and upon completion of the seminar. Performers of the US is not mandating you attend this seminar, but we do highly recommend your attendance in support of your profession, our association and the customers you entertain.

We may in the future obtain jurisdiction approval of our seminar so as to offer certification and possible education credit. But our initial emphasis is to support, educate, compare and contrast ideas and build continuity of customer safety and cost management for all members (and nonmembers if desired). Thank you. Stephanie Weiss

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Permalink Reply by Justin James on April 29, 2008 at 6:31am

Thank you Stephanie for responding, I understand that this course has stirred the pot considerably however if you read through here you will find several top Hypnotist and schools willing to help and to even assist for no personal credit to put this program on the web. No one is asking for $$ to do it either we all know the importance of it and are backing you up!

What the majority of us are not supporting though is the current delivery method because of the problems it causes.

Jerry Valley has sent out emails saying if you do not take his class you will not be insured and that he is going to charge 295.00 for something that he was supposed to do all these years however did not. (I do have all of his material Videos and Books)

WFA Membership is 200.00 + costs to go to convention + lodging

and never mind the conflict of interest with Susan Rosen Being a direct competitor. (Again there I am not beating her up) I am saying that there will be huge issues because of her relationship with the major associations that gather talent for booking shows (IAFE WFA) and the fact that she books the same business for the same prices.

Still for many what has been an affordable 150.00 to now 200.00 policy it will cost nearly 1000.00 dollars to get!

Lets face it 295.00 for Jerry's pocket 4 days in Vegas 400.00 hotel. 200.00 for air fare and food

plus insurance and suddenly you have spent 1200 + for a 200.00 policy.

This needs to be sponsored by your association and there are many of us who have the video equipment, Stage access, and computer know how, to film you a TV quality video, post it to your web site, and build you a page where people can go and take a test!

And here is the secret. We will do it for free!

We want stage safety material out there and it needs to get in the hands of not just your insured but every guy who just read a book and now thinks he is going to make himself rich as a entertainer.

I will host a copy of that video on my site... For free...


I will make a hell of a lot more money if there is less Hypno Idiocy going on!

Personally I am tired of the recent rash of problems we have had due to these poorly trained three day masters..

and this spring alone lost several contracts because of it here on the west coast.

Let us all help and assist you in doing this right for the community at large.

Please post the biggest and smallest problems you have run into with stage shows and we will publicly put this together so that no one can argue your course and you can honestly say this was put together by some of the top pros in the world.

I have been one of your insured for many years and been very happy with you and your dad.

You guys have always been good to me,
and I have never had a problem.

Please let us help you to get rid of this problem

Sincerely,,

Justin James

CEO
The Hypnosis Company

PO BX 35980 Las Vegas NV
89133

www.thehypnosiscompany.com

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