Stage Hypnosis Safety and the Insurance industry

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Permalink Reply by Guy Cater on May 11, 2008 at 1:43pm

Hi Justin et al,
Just a 'Hello' from New Zealand and to introduce myself.
I have been a professional stage hypnotist for almost 29 years and I am a New Zealander and live here. My wife hails from Casper, Wyoming.
Once a year we return to the USA for a month so that Cynthia can catch up with her folks and I perform at Grad Nights that Barry Jones is unable to do because of his high workload.
When asked to assist in editing information regarding a certified safety course, I was delighted to do so ... I understand the difficulty you are all facing and would be pleased to help.
Brian said 'I was certainly not asked to put together a product from other people's work that I would sell. When I was asked to participate in this as an editing coordinator, I was specifically asked to do so in a way in which it was clear that I would be donating my time and effort without monetary compensation.' ... and the same applies to me.
For six years I have been editor of the largest entertainment magazine in New Zealand and Barry was asking me to purely use the skills I have honed in this direction.
I think if you all work together then you will find a solution to this problem and if I am able to help then I will feel I have been able to give a little back to the country that gave me my lovely wife.
Please feel free to contact me at anytime or better still, through Justin's forum.

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Permalink Reply by Lee Darrow on May 11, 2008 at 2:20pm

Thanks for clarifying this, Guy. It is appreciated in this corner, very much. However, I disagree that the work should be uncredited, except for the editor(s) and I very much take exception with the idea that it is being served up, for a fee, without those contributors being paid, while the publisher would seem to be paid for it.

Even if the publisher donated the monies to a charity, there are some folks who would object to the specific charity that they might choose as, in the US, more and more charitable organizations are coming under fire for fiscal irresponsibility.

The worker should be credited for his or her contribution. This goes directly to accountability and credibility. If one of the contributors states "Thou shalt not do the Human Bridge" and is video-recorded doing the Human Bridge at several performances, this will not redound well on the ethics nor the professionalism of the contributors nor on the safety program, itself. Crediting the contributions also will show the public, the insurance industry and the practitioners, that we are fully transparent in our program and the management thereof.

Again, thank you for your clarification and your support in this matter. It IS a turning point for the industry. It is my fervent hope that we can avoid the creation of a "Stage Hypnosis Insurance Tsarina" and to create a choice for those seeking affordable liability coverage in so doing.

Lee Darrow, C.H.

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Permalink Reply by Lee Darrow on May 11, 2008 at 2:50pm

I just received a forwarded message from one of the Yahoo Groups I belong to.

Be concerned, folks. Be VERY concerned...

" From: ramons99@yahoo.com
Reply-to: StageHypnotistOnly@yahoogroups.com
To: StageHypnotistOnly@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 5/8/2008 4:38:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time
Subj: [StageHypnotistOnly] Specialty Insurance


I just spoke with Steph Weiss who informed me that a decision will be
made on Monday 12 May 2008 if the Insurance Carrier will drop
Hypnotists from the insurance or not. And if they do they will refund
whomever has a current policy with them."

Not thrilling news for those with policies with them.

Lee Darrow, C,H.

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Permalink Reply by Lee Darrow on May 12, 2008 at 6:52am

Paul Knight wrote:
Brain is right on this one. Up to this point there has been no copyright violation. Lee's comments are warnings and concerns. I presume his comments are intended to avoid possible lawsuits, not cause them.

Right now, much of our information has come from rumors and hearsay. All we know as fact is that Stephanie wants stage hypnotists to take a safety course. So far, there have been no objections to that from anyone. We know that a safety course that has been recommended (selected?) is a not yet finalized course by Sue Rosen. We also know Sue held a meeting with some hypnotists offering them a chance to be trainers for the course. Those are the known facts.

What we do not know is the motivation behind the meeting, why Sue's course was chosen, what Sue's course will be like, how it will be offered, how much it will cost or other details such as the specific legal implications of the course. Until we know this, we must be careful not to jump to conclusions.

Based on the rumors and few known facts there are valid concerns about conflicts of interest, profiteering and possible insurance regulation and copyright violations. But none of this has happened yet and may never happen. Until something actually occurs the issues are only talking points.

It is very probable that Sue and Stephanie have been taking these concerns into consideration and will make sure they are addressed satisfactorily. Until we have more facts, while we are certainly welcome to express our concerns, we must limit our emotions and actions to what is known not what is presumed.

Paul, we have no idea what Susan has or has not done, you are right, regarding the copyright issue.

However let me reiterate something from an earlier post:

In an INFORMAL conversation with the Secretary to the Commissioner of Insurance for the State of Wisconsin, about 8 days ago, NO filing for approval of ANY safety course for stage hypnotists had been made by ANY insurance agency, whatsoever.

The Secretary expressed serious concerns about this lack and the fact, as expressed in the pdf posted on the agency's web site, that stated that one MUST take said course in order to be able to purchase insurance from said agency.

Under Wisconsin law, NO educational program can be required for insurability without the express and mandatory review by and approval of the State Commissioner of Insurance's Office. According to her, that process can take anywhere from several months to "much, much longer." But to ignore that regulation is a serious violation, indeed. Fortunately, I did NOT name any names at the time and DID advise Stephanie Weiss of the issue after my discussion with the Commissioner's Office.

As of right now, I am not aware of ANY move on their part to get this program approved through the State Commissioner's Office.

If they (either the Agency or the insurance company) don't get this program approved properly - and I believe that the regulation applies in ANY state in which they plan to write policies - then they will be facing some very serious repercussions from the State Commissioner's Office, should they choose to get involved.

I have done what I can in advising Stephanie Weiss of the legal requirements in her state regarding the inception of a mandatory educational program. Others have posted similar comments in here, as well as pointing out the issues of conflict of interest (seemingly a clear violation of several trade laws as well) and the problems with the gaining of an unfair competitive advantage on the part of one hypnotist over all others by the creation of this singular position, which also seems to be a pretty clear violation of a couple of trade laws as I understand the situation.

At this point, let the chips fall where they may as far as the actions of the agency, its owner(s) and Ms. Rosen are concerned.

But should this situation play out much longer, I am legally bound to start filing reports on what I have witnessed, directly, to the Commissioner of Insurance for my state, for Wisconsin and for Nevada, where the class is scheduled to happen, as I understand things or risk losing my licenses for failure to report a perceived violation in the industry.

Lee Darrow, C.H.
Licensed and Bonded Insurance Agent and Broker in Illinois Only
(this is not a solicitation for insurance sales - no agent will call on you)

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Permalink Reply by Justin James on May 12, 2008 at 9:36am

Paul I have copied your post so that the time line on this conversation can be corrected...

unfortunately anyone reading this unless they note the time line on the conversations are bound to get confused so please help by responding after the latest post so that chronology is maintained.

Thanks.

To answer your post, yes lee can be hot under the collar at times and is quite upset however to his credit he is and has been taking positive action to help resolve this issue and is not going off "half cocked"

Stephanie Weiss has told me in a phone conversation that she was considering canceling this policy and would as of 09 if this safety program did not get implemented.

To her credit she was and has been wanting to implement something that would help us all however the methods used have been not well recieved by the community at large.

She has not been threatened she has had many calls from people who have called me directly and said we told her we would help. FOR FREE. She has declined that help.

As to my reporting of the meeting I spoke directly to all the attendees but a couple and they all verified the information as true and correct.

I believed that that information need be made public so that anyone what has read all the posts contained in this discussion could come to a fair and reasonable conclusion of thier own
if you or anyone else would like to call me directly or email me I am glad to discuss the possibe alternative solutions that are currently being put in place...

Again no one is off chasing windmills with this issue. We are industry professionals who are concerned and taking positive action

If you read the original discussion topic this was a call to action to find solutions and it still is.
As moderator for this particular discussion my role is to pull people together on this and not have everyone going willy nilly in different directions.

And my personal agenda is to have insurance for us as an industry and personally because this does affect me greatly as an entertainer and as an industry professional.

I am glad you are contributing and are concerned

Thank you

Justin James

(Paul Knight)
45 minutes ago
This reply is meant as a response to Justin's post, but for some reason I cannot respond directly to his post.

As to what has been reported currently 99% is fact.
There is and has been very little rumor the information received and reported on has been direct from Specialty insurance, and the people who have attended the meeting in Vegas.

I disagree. I will detail below what I consider to be rumors and hearsay to clarify my position.

To be completely clear, just because it is a rumor does not make it false. It just means there is no hard evidence supporting the statement. Hearsay, for the uninitiated, means you are repeating something someone told you but you cannot substantiate yourself. Again, it may be a true statement, but the person reporting it cannot directly confirm it.

None of this should suggest in any way that Justin is liar or rumormonger. He is reporting the information to the best of his ability and I applaud it. But people seem to be preparing to take action based on incomplete information. (That statement is a projection on my part. It is not fact.) Wrong action could have serious consequences and the facts need to be clarified:

Justin's earlier post suggests a "secret meeting". At least one person has refuted that. They say it was a "selective meeting". There is a difference. Justin has claimed people are saying this is a scam. That is hearsay and that statement has been disputed.

Had you read through everything, Susan and Stephanie did not take precautions instead they attempted to force a safety program on their insured base make it Hypnotist specific and then charge a fee that was more then the actual insurance!

We do not yet know the official cost. It appears to be tentatively set at $295, but nothing is official. Neither is the $3000 fee to be a "licensed" instructor of the course. That could change.

As to the course it has been finished there is a book and curriculum.

Has anyone other than Sue or Stephanie seen the finished product? Until we see the material that will actually be used, everything about it is a rumor or hearsay.

[Stephanie] had also threatened to cancel insurance for all hypnotists.

I could find no record of Stephanie actually stating this. I have seen several posts of people reporting that she might do this, but no evidence from Stephanie herself. Again, rumor and hearsay.

In the general opinion of this group, Stephanie and Sue have not satisfactorily explained their logic about why they are doing what they are doing. Silence does not equal guilt. We are all projecting why they have not offered a satisfactory explanation. That makes all of our guesses rumors.

In my opinion, we have a lot of sabre-rattling going on. That has made a lot of people on all sides nervous. When people get nervous people tend to act less than rationally. In that case, there could be serious consequences for all of us. What I am saying is take a deep breath, slow down and take a careful look at what are facts and what are rumors. From my perspective, I see less facts and a lot of projection going on. That is not going help resolve this.

We need to keep our emotions and fears out of this. Certainly prepare for the worst and hope that all the preparation becomes unnecessary. However, preparation is not action. Until we know more, patience may be our best virtue.

Ray Thompson Permalink Reply by Ray Thompson on April 28, 2008 at 11:21am

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Permalink Reply by Justin James on May 12, 2008 at 9:57am

Bob Please reply in chronology after the last post to resolve confusion. I am reposting your statement here and please read the last few posts .... you will note action is being taken... Unfortunately people are posting all over the discussion thread so please help me by keeping this current.

Thanks


Justin James

Bob Brown, CHt, CNLP 1 hour ago
Perfect.. whatever works for you.. I merely offered my thoughts, as thoughts, not really to open more debate.

Just keep in mind along with freedom of speech your country has a long history of freely suing (with or without cause).

My other point was more of a "Poop or get off the pot" rally cry... but then again I may be a little more impatient than most.

Hope it helps..

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Permalink Reply by Bob Brown, CHt, CNLP on May 12, 2008 at 10:06am

I just hit "reply to this".. where it decides to post it.. well thats up to the technology...

bob

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Permalink Reply by Brian David Phillips on May 12, 2008 at 3:44pm

Hitting "reply to this" is correct. This is not a basic phbb board that puts all the posts in order chronologically, it is a threaded topic board that groups posts in reference to what is being replied to. So, when you hit reply, your response goes into the hierarchy related to the post you hit reply to - this sometimes means things do seem to get separated by time or location as subthreads develop and your post will skip over the posts in reply to an earlier reply to the same post you are replying to (notice the indentations which also help keep track of threads within the main discussion). It can get confusing for those not used to it but the only way to keep all the posts in chronological order is to mandate and enforce that folks can only post by replying to the original post rather than other user comments (not a very elegant solution). Those who are confused can note the date on posts. The advantage of "watching" a topic is that you receive notification of new posts and the link puts you right there. Yes, it's tedious in really long discussions like this one but for most discussions it is very helpful.

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Permalink Reply by Bob Brown, CHt, CNLP on May 12, 2008 at 4:01pm

Thanks.. that's what I thought it was doing.. You are such a techie!

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Permalink Reply by Justin James on May 12, 2008 at 5:03pm

Thanks Brian yes for most it is helpful for this one it has us running in circles a bit..

Thanks for the clarification

Justin

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Permalink Reply by Ray Thompson on May 12, 2008 at 7:01pm

Justin,
What can I do?
I have a fledgling association of stage hypnotists just rying to do what we can to be professionals. I cover safety a lot in my training program and intend to not only read Lee Darrow's book, but have plans to attend his class next month. all so I can be sure I am doing what I can for my shows and to pass this on to my mentorees and members.

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Permalink Reply by Justin James on May 12, 2008 at 7:35pm

email me direct jjhypnotist@gmail.com
anyone who wants to know what we are up to to provide an alternative can email me directly and I have no problem discussing this with them anyone can also go to my web site
www.thehypnosiscompany.com if you want to just call
Thanks Ray!

Justin James

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