What's the difference between induction and suggestion?

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Permalink Reply by Sheila M. Street, CI CH M.NLP on June 25, 2008 at 5:27am

If one truly absorbs their hypnosis training, and particularly when one combines that with NLP training, then I definitely agree that you (the hypnotist) no longer speak quite the same to anyone, because you become a great deal more aware of the impact of your words.

As far as the "induction" part goes, any client who walks through your office door with the intent of making a change in their lives is already in hypnosis anyways - it is then for us to continue to advance that intent, and their hypnosis, toward that purpose, so I definitely agree that the induction and suggestion are the same thing.

I am leaning toward, but not entirely convinced that all hypnosis is the delivery and acceptance of suggeston. I tend toward that hypnosis is the state we move through (when hypnotised), and the delivery and acceptance of suggestion is what we do with that state, once achieved. A fine line, though, between the two at times. Perhaps it is a matter of word semantics, that we associate the "state" with what is achieved during it, so that the lines of where one stops and the other begins is blurred.

People do accept suggestions rather easily, if their guard is not activated against doing that. Yesterday, shopping for groceries, a woman in the produce section was struggling with opening a flimsy plastic bag. Having just experienced the same problem, but also finding a solution, I walked over to her and asked if I could show her my solution, to which she readily agreed. In the process I made a few more informal suggestions about how her day would go, and that later we'd probably meet up again. Sure enough, at the other end of the store, she tracked me down to let me know how great the bag solution was, and that her day was going great. This is the power of suggestion at work where there was no formal induction, and no formal suggestions. Her day could have been quite different if her frustration with the bag had continued. Who knows the impact that this will have on her life! By Jonathan's definition, I agree that this could be called hypnosis. So I think we all (as hypnotists) bear a responsibility for how we talk to anyone, at any time, because we now know the power of what we do.

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Permalink Reply by Richard Rumble on June 25, 2008 at 1:01pm

GREAT responses...

I think that the core of this issue is why there is no hard fast scientific rule for what is or is not HYPNOSIS as of yet. YET is a biggie with MRI and other imaging being turned to the hypnotic client.

Just a couple of different scenes...
1)
Woman is in an auto accident... in order to save her child she is able to ignore the injuries she has, and lift the car using super human strength to save the child. Ok.. Thats kind of extreme... how about I am getting gear out of my Van and 20 min. later I notice that somehow I have lacerated my arm and I am bleeding... No pain.. no memory of when the injury happened.. only the knowledge that it wasn't there before.. and now it is...

2)
You walk into a store.. for ONE specific Item. As you exit the store, you have several that you didn't intend to buy.. but picked up at the last moment anyway.

3)
You are in a conversation with a friend.. and you find yourself agreeing with them on a subject that you generally would not... OR agreeing with them and then afterward.. ponder why you were shaking your head yes when they were saying things that you did not agree with...

In NONE of the above scenes was there ever a formal hypnotic induction... and perhaps not even an acknowledged suggestion.. and yet we find that Hypnotic operators that we commonly use to do the same things in our clients are at work.

Pain modification... we are focusing the client on something ELSE that is more productive...

Positive suggestions about making certain choices as to what to eat or not eat... even post hypnotic suggestions to use healthy foods on a regular basis....

Great Rapport Skills in order to re-frame and get a "yes" set from a client in order to help them change now for a positive result...

Would it be out of line to suggest the the human mind is able to slip in and out of a hypnotic state whenever it is focused on something? And once in that state is more open to suggestion, induction or not? That maybe the focused mind is the induction itself.

I have done stage shows where I can see different people slip into trance.. BEFORE I even begin the "formal induction". They are focused on something.. and you can just see the eyes glaze over...

Perhaps "Mono Ideaisam" is a better word for what we do....

Just a few thoughts...

Richard Rumble
Mister Hypnosis

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Permalink Reply by Jonathan Chase on June 28, 2008 at 4:09am

Hi Richard,

Just a couple of thoughts

MRI is just another swinging watch. :-)

1) The woman lifting the car thing is myth with not one jot of corroborative evidence anywhere. I have performed hundreds of experiments and not once found anyone to be stronger divested of the encumbrance of the conscious.

2) Is called memory and impulse. Either you remember, or think you remember. You needed something or you just fancy the look of something. If anything else were true then you’d walk out with every single item in the store when you went in for toothpaste. Actually the clever thing is the spin that they do influence you has become a belief.

Personally I have never ever experienced 3) but maybe that’s just me.

I think to suppose that the same things are at work in the above as with hypnosis is fair. Mind, Brain, Communication, Emotions, Desire. But then it would be accurate to say the same thing about every action and thought regardless of the intent or outcome.

Pain modification – I focus the subject on the pain directly and show them what it is, seems easier for me.

I don’t use rapport skills as they tend to be false or just plain useless. The Awe Rapport is way more dynamically productive in my experience. I'm a HYPNOTIST and everyone knows it.

The focus thing is interesting except that if you actively try to give suggestion to a really focused person, or an unfocused person for that matter, they don’t respond. In fact if they are not focused on you then it’s unlikely they will even notice you. The thing is hypnosis is focus but it is specific focus. It is focus on the hypnotist regardless of any outside influence. It’s focus on the hypnotist.

In stage shows the somnambulists will be focused on you just from reading your blurb or seeing your poster. They are focused on the hypnotist. Which is the single thought proposed by Braid. Lets face it hypnosios is to them what Duff and dohnuts are to Homer.

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Permalink Reply by Richard Rumble on June 28, 2008 at 11:34am

Jonathan,

YOU have such fascinating BELIEFS... I wonder if it is ALL of the UK hypnotists or just YOU that have such a self centered belief structure about these things that you believe.

Funny how your reality and our reality are totally different huh.... or maybe it IS just you as you pointed out....


Richard

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Permalink Reply by Justin James on June 28, 2008 at 11:56am

Richard he is the number one trainer of hypnotists in the world! Self proclaimed of course. He is also teaching in Oxford... He never said at Oxford.

I of course went to a small school in Cambridge. I did not go to Cambridge though. I was at Harvard.

His own hypno Junkies have led him to believe his own hype.

Jonathan climb down a bit here from wherever you are. Please this is disturbing even Paul McKenna isn't this boastful.

And that is saying a lot!


your commentary I don’t use rapport skills as they tend to be false or just plain useless. The Awe Rapport is way more dynamically productive in my experience. I'm a HYPNOTIST and everyone knows it.

Flies so far against common knowledge as to be totally useless... The Awe Rapport, what a load, to suggest that your mere presence will cause the unenlightened to cower!..

I want to see you appear at a corporate show where no one knows who you are or what the entertainment of the night is and jump on stage and say I'm a HYPNOTIST!, I certainly would have a chuckle....

But then what would I know, I only do 300 Hypnosis shows a year and perform for some of the largest venues in the world.

No offense Jonathan you are dealing with a group of professionals who do this professionally for a living.. If you want to BS people please do it to some mark in the UK. Not here because it will not float.
Justin

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Permalink Reply by Reg Blackwood on June 28, 2008 at 3:56pm

Wow! Heated discussion!

Ok. So I am new to most of you, and I don't do 300 shows a year in large venues (which, by the way, is awesome Justin!)

However, having read the posts here, I really don't think Jonathan Chase's reality is actually so different to everyone else's. Maybe it's just in the interpretation of the reality.

There are many hypnotists (myself included) that subscribe to the belief and understanding of these and similar theories. Does this make us worse hypnotists? Jonathan Chase's Hypno-junkies? Victims of BS? I don't think so!

Anyway, I don't think these are new theories/beliefs. Far from it.
I see them as a distillation of more widely held beliefs and theories. A distillation I find hard to disagree with because it works for me!
Let's face it. Are they really so different to those proposed by Elman scholars that belief or even pretence becomes the reality for the subject?

Furthermore, I don't believe Jonathan is speaking from a self-centred point of view. Merely a hypnotist-centred one!

As I've already stated, I believe there is no hypnosis without a hypnotist.
Sure, there are similar phenomena, like those described in posts above, but I don't believe it's hypnosis and believe self-hypnosis is just self-suggestion.

I also believe a hypnotist ALWAYS tells the subject he/she's the hypnotist.
OK, this might happen unconsciously (by suggestion) and is often less obvious than jumping up on stage and stating "I'm the hypnotist, you're the subject" but there can be no hypnosis until that essential belief is communicated and that relationship instilled.

Even with so-called covert hypnosis and shock inductions, "tricks" (suggestions?) are employed to slip under the radar, or sneak past the gatekeeper, but with the aim of ultimately communicating that single idea.

It's great there are many different ways of learning and teaching about this wonderful thing we call hypnosis and I'm always learning and so am prepared to examine, and indeed test any theories presented.
I'd hate to be thought of as monoideaistic ;)

Being based in New Zealand, the chances of studying with Jonathan Chase are unfortunately remote (sic.) but I think I get it, I really do.
I don't see where the BS is here, but what do I know? I'm a new kid on the block and probably always will be to many of you.

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Permalink Reply by Jonathan Chase on June 29, 2008 at 12:28am

Hey Reg,

I neither bull nor brag. Just state facts.

The fact is most hypnotists have been taught and blindly accept the rubbish thats been thrown around since Erickson. However the really interesting thing is that when someone on these hypnosis groups say's anything that goes against the generally accepted the faithful jump up and down raving about the heretic.

Now the fact is I don't believe anything till I've been there and done it and comment on less. I have forced people into hypnosis who were trying really hard not to go. I have cajoled people to do things they wouldn't normally do. I have never seen people reject suggestion when hypnotised but have delivered the suggestion badly or just not hit on something they can imagine. But I accept full blame for that and more. And there is the real secret - when it fails it's because I've screwed up. Nothing to do with the punter, I am the expert.

Now all of the above, as with most of what I do, was written with a smile, even the US insults which sadly often only go to prove the lack of a sense of humor. But you know, I have done corporate shows as a surprise guest and the good old "I am the hypnotist" works. It just does. Every single time.

My intent here and on groups like this is to give an alternative point of view in the hope that hypnosis can become the fantastic art it should be for expanding human experience rather than the emotional band-aid it has become.

And to show that the entertainment side out of it can move away from group slapstick and into a rather more sophisticated lne of entertainment.

As for the bragging - I wasn't aware I was but you know if I did the only brag I would do is to state that I do things my way and lots of other do things the way I do as well.

I don't have beliefs Reg. I do have what I've seen happen thousands of times.

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Permalink Reply by Reg Blackwood on June 29, 2008 at 12:56am

*I* never said you were bragging or bullsh*tting.
I was expressing my surprise that your point of view had met with such vitriol as I had no idea it was such a rare one.
Anyway. Great to have you here, stirring things up :)

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Permalink Reply by Jonathan Chase on June 29, 2008 at 1:14am

I know you didn't. I didn't say you did but because I was replying to your post you assumed that it was 'yours'. Don't you just love pulling strings? I do. Manipulation - the name of the game. What's fascinating is when others don't see it for what it is. ;-) [wink]

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Permalink Reply by Jonathan Chase on June 29, 2008 at 12:49am

Just,

*I* never suggested a single thing you say I did.

The awe rapport is real and works all the time. Look at the great leaders. Derren Brown certainly uses that air of magic and mystery as does Kreskin who is probably one of the best hypnotists this world has seen.

We deal in the world of imagination and other realities my friend, weather you like it or not.

As for the silly Oxford Cambridge thing so what?

I went to Portland college for the disabled and got thrown out after being found in the girls residency. ;-)

I came to learn hypnosis from a comedian and a circus knife thrower and then from experimentation.

I don't do the "I do a show a day and three on a sunday" bit cause it's silly. I have gone past the stage where I need to and now work smart instead of a lot.

As for the size of venue a quick call and no one i the UK has ever heard of you nor has Hanz Lang who promotes most of Europe so I wonder what you consider to be 'the world'?

Now if you take that personally as a slight instead of the playfull prod it was meant to be - well thats your problem chief. ;-)

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Permalink Reply by Richard Rumble on June 29, 2008 at 11:16am

This will probably be my last post on this topic, because quite frankly, I am way to busy performing, marketing and getting to and from shows to be baited into an argument just so someone can in their own words, "Stir the Pot". Its a waste of time. Quite frankly, I know that Jonathan will not be changing his opinion ( YES JON.. its just your opinion ) and those of us with a different opinion will not be changing ours anytime soon. At least not at the suggestion of one Jonathan Chase.

That being said... the ORIGINAL premise of this discussion was as stated:

*****snip***

I teach that as soon as you know you are a hypnotist and that you have the intent to hypnotise someone that from the moment onward every word is a suggestion.

If that is so then induction and suggestion are the same thing.

[I actually think all hypnosis is the delivery and acceptance of suggestion but what do I know?]

***** End Snip*****

This discussion was started with a simple discussion of induction and suggestion.... and yet.. when ANY view was discussed as an opposing view, Jon, < may I call you Jon > took the time to shoot each one down with such an tone of ARROGANCE and ELITISM that the conversations SOON became as one poster put it, "Vitriolic ".

WELL.. NO DUH... When someone ASKS for an opinion.. and then calls the response "Rubbish" and POPPYCOCK or whatever other British equivalent to BULLSHIT there is... The respondent tends to get a bit hostile in the further responses.

So.. If the Hypnosis world according to Jonathan Chase is that HE ( and other REAL hypnotists of course) can FORCE someone into hypnosis.. and that the person who is hypnotized < sorry for the American Spelling, but the spell checker is American and it only recognizes the correct spelling in American English. > MUST do everything that the Real Hypnotist says...... ( that IS what you have stated Jon, ) Then WHY prey tell are there still criminals in the UK? Why have not you and your REAL hypnotist friends gone into the Prisons and forced every convict into hypnosis and suggested that they become Model citizens to go out and no longer break the law? WHY are there still hungry people begging in the tubes.. when you could hypnotize the Wealthy to give them enough money to live a nice life.. or hypnotize the poor to have a better work ethic or better work habits or have better higher paying skills? I mean.. if you can FORCE people to do things while hypnotized.. why is there still drug addiction.. Alcoholism.. Obesity.. Poor Dental Hygiene? I would think that the UK would be PERFECT... because you can force people to be hypnotized and the force them to do what you want.

As to Working Smarter and not Harder.... What a backhanded way to say, " I Must be Smarter than YOU". Give me a break. I personally performed well over 400 different shows last year.. yes thats more than ONE a day.. sometimes its 3 and 4 a day.. even up to 7.. no that was not ALL high paid hypnosis shows... I am a Magician, I am a professional Speaker, I am an Educator.. and EVERY performance had a beginning, a middle, and End with its OWN separate audience and each one used elements of my hypnosis skills, my NLP skills and my over 30 years of entertainment and performing skills. WHY did I work so many shows? BECAUSE I LOVE PERFORMING. Has nothing to do with harder or smarter.. it has to do with my desire to be in front of an audience.

David Copperfield performs over 400 shows a year.. as do MANY of the big performing stars... Celine Dion, Rock Bands, Comedians... I suppose you would tell them that they aren't as smart as you because you are working smarter.. not harder? POPPYCOCK.... By the way.. BECAUSE I do a lot of shows... and I love performing... I DO own my own home down at the beach in So. California, watch the TV show THE OC.. those are my neighbors. I own a 27' sail boat.. I keep it in the harbor here... I LOVE the life that I have created for myself... Get off your high horse with the " I don't need to work that much cause I'm smart". Doesn't fly with real performers.

As to " the rubbish thats been thrown around since Erickson". I really don't know what to say here.. if you can just off hand dismiss the documented results that Erickson got in clinical situations, the positive results that anybody using the NLP and language patterns or rapport skills has gotten. Then there really is no hope of you even slightly understanding what we do over here. It sounds a LOT like you are saying, " my mind is made up.. don't confuse me with your bloody facts".

Now.. I hope you believe me when I say.. that ALL of the above was not bragging, and I said every word of it with a smile on my face... This is just the FACTS of what is... and really .. stirring the pot sometimes doesn't HELP the dish.. try stirring your pasta or the oatmeal you have for breakfast.. ( would that be gruel in the UK?) Sometimes your stirring is just another form of mental Masterbation.

I'm smiling... and I'm done here

Richard Rumble

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Permalink Reply by Jonathan Chase on July 6, 2008 at 9:21am

Richard I submit. Nothing I say is ever vitriolic. I do work smart, but sorry if that statement seems to you a if I am implying other don't. It is a statement of my own percieved position and not that of any other.

The jokes about spelling are just that, fun.

My views on hypnosis are open to debate, and I could have them changed if someone actually came up with anything solid to do so.

I would never use poppycock, trust me I am a working class lad and the word shit has no fear for me ;-)

Of course all somnambulists can be hypnotised willing or not and so that's about 25% of people depending on country and age. The American audiences I've noticed on cruise ships are more susceptible on th whole then British and central Europeans and Arabic are much harder.

At least half the things you say I have written I haven't by the way.

I didn't pass comment on Erickson just said rubbish had been thrown about since him. Personally I think he could have got much better and faster results but as you say that is just my opinion.

Stirring the pot doesn't help the dish? I have to respectfully disagree, like most metaphor that is wrong as several dishes spoil without the stirring. But I guess doing all those shows you don't have much time to cook?

As for mental masturbation you could be right, but there is nothing wrong with that. Much better than mental castration don't you think?

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