Pain is a behavior.

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Permalink Reply by Patricia Robinett on July 2, 2008 at 10:10pm

oh, melissa, i LOVE it. it is SO true.
i don't know if we're talking about the same thing, but
let me tell you what i think and you can tell me if it's what
you are talking about. i believe in mind as the source.
from what i can tell, trauma gets stuck and we continue
to act it out until and unless the trauma is released.
has that been your observation, melissa?
is that anything close to what you mean by 'behavior
and not a symptom'?

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Permalink Reply by Feir Johnson on July 3, 2008 at 4:13am

I have found experientially that pain appears to be more of a behaviour than a symptom.
Now let's clarify here. If I cut my finger, break my leg, have an internal problem - it hurts. But if it really is a symptom of something wrong when I give it attention it is alleviated.
The clients who come to me have usually taken that action to alleviate the pain - massive drugs, physio, exercise etc. and those clients find the pain right on perking. Often their doctors tell them that they have to live with it becuase 1] they shouldn't have it due to all the work and drugs the doctor has done and prescribed and 2] the doctor doesn't know anything else to do. I find this particularly with fibromyalgia and IBS.
So I hedge my bets somewhat when I work with these issues. I consider any 'real pain' is only about 10% and use your work Melissa to handle this. But the 90% I approach with the Mind/Body concepts of John Sarno M.D. I actually have a 6 week program that the client follows with me involving conscious coaching for daily life, hypnosis sessions to release limiting emotions and move on [and real pain hypnosis as well], EFT in and out of hypnosis, and reinforcement cds between sessions.
As my clients say [it's hard!]. By this they mean consiously choosing to think another way and catching themselves when they don't is a fulltime job. But the pay off is that fibro and IBS go. I was lucky enough to have a medical doctor follow one of my clients and document her improvement - off massive drugs, no fibro points, and now bike riding. [Of course in spite of this this doctyor isn't referring anybody to me].
So in answer to your question my own long winded one. I can't help but believe through experience that pain retention is mostly a behaviour, - and - I also belive the mind can make very real pain in the body.

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Permalink Reply by Susan French on July 3, 2008 at 8:01am

I also read Sarno's book, twice in fact. I believe that it is dangerous not to be certain that certain clinical questions have been asked and answered.

Melissa, your ideas about purposeful pain (pain that is sending you a message to keep you from further injuring yourself if you ignore it) and nonpurposeful pain (pain that has no purpose to protect you from anything). That was really helpful and I think when dealing with pain or anything that might have a physiological cause, you have to first rule out the physical,.

I've had this argument with the strict regressionists many times. My view is that bodies age, they become injured and diseased and that that is the natural way of things. If you're religious or spiritual, you can even consider that it's part of your journey. Whatever feels best to the individual. I think it is VERY DANGEROUS to first try to treat anything psychologically that might have any physical cause. I think that there is a BIG temptation to do that in our work. It's dangerous for our clients and for ourselves.

That said, once we have made certain that the person's pain does not need medical intervention (by medical professionals) then we can explore the possible psychological causes...but NOT before.

Even if no real causation can be determined (as was the case with Melissa's broken foot), it still does not mean for certain that there is no physical cause that needs attention.

How do we then use what we know to help the person in pain?

I know that we can use our minds (therefore hypnosis) to get the body to release endorphins (natural painkillers). I know because I've done it.

I know that we can then explore for psychological/spiritual causation but we must be so careful not to lead. Therein lies the danger.

Of course, the placebo effect can make pain go away. You can suggest to a client that he can jump up and down and turn around 3 times and say Rumplestilskin and that his pain will be gone. If he's a good hypnotic subject and very suggestible, this might work. That's great.

However, you can't really say that this intervention revealed the cause. You can only say for certain that the client took the suggestion and blocked his pain with the power of his mind/body (releasing endorphins).

You can look for secondary gain, but again, be careful not to lead. We aren't God. We have to be so careful not to try on that crown and think we can fly. We can do harm. First do no harm.

If our pain interventions block pain that has a physical cause, a meaningful purpose, the person can injure themselves more because, we have, in effect, given them their own morphine and taken away their ability to respond to that message.

Beyond these ideas, though, I'm still looking for what works, what doesn't and what's safe.

Susan

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Permalink Reply by Melissa J. Roth on July 3, 2008 at 4:22am

This is exactly what I hoped would happen in response to this question. Your response wasn't in the direction I was thinking when I posted the question but what you say is very true. I wanted perspectives other than my own. None of us grow or learn by restricting ourselves to our own thought processes. I'm not going to post yet about what I meant b behavior. I want to see what others have to say first. I promise to post about it later if anyone is still interested.

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Permalink Reply by Melissa J. Roth on July 3, 2008 at 4:26am

Psychogenic pain hurts just as much as any other pain. Or, is it all psychogenic?

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Permalink Reply by Paul Sutton on July 3, 2008 at 6:12am

I agree !!! I'm a relative newby at this, but find some fascinating "coincidences" with what you have said. Possibly 'initial' pain would be the result of an injury, inflammation, or irritation that calls for some type immediate attention even if only a little ice, cool water, or aspirin (or remove the rock from your shoe). When pain becomes 'lasting' or chronic, I tend to see it more as a 'learned' pattern or behavior. I'm sure my 'blurb' is a bit too much generalized, but as a discussion point I believe you are on target!

Psychogenic pain:
Sort of like the quote - "There's no such thing as hypnosis ... or it's ALL hypnosis"

Paul

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Permalink Reply by Susan French on July 3, 2008 at 8:06am

It depends on how you define psychogenic. If by psychogenic you mean that the brain and CNS is involved, all pain is psychogenic. If by psychogenic you mean that there is a significant psychological cause, that's different.

I think the biggest problem here is in figuring out how to rule out the physical and then search for the psychological from a neutral place of observation and active listening only.

I would be suspicious if someone solves one physical problem but another one pops up and these causations are vague and not completely verifiable as physical. Suspicious and ready to explore but being careful not to presume or assume anything.

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Permalink Reply by SUSAN FOX on July 3, 2008 at 5:56am

Ok. Here's a possible way to look at pain from the brain's 4 views. For those interested in the 4 languages of the brain, go to my group discussion in Brain Fitness Research. The way each brain quadrant works is that it sees life through competitve views or creative (cooperative/teamwork)views. When we act self-absorbed we compete and (destruct) causing unnecessary, purposeless pain. When we act self-reliant and creative, we construct. This phenomenon occurs in all 4 brain quadrants. Also, remember that the left hemisphere thinks in terms of tasks and the right brain thinks in terms of interactions affecting people.

"Pain" can be viewed from the lower left brain as a strategy to competitively accomplish a specific goal. This brain quadrant's priority is efficient productivity. Competitively, producing the behavior "pain" could be a tactic to dominate and perhaps punish a person. Creatively, it could be a strategy to get a client to pay attention and slow down to efficiently product some necessary goal for productive life.

"Pain" can be viewed from the lower right brain as an non-thinking, unconscious oversight to competitively affect a relationship. This brain quadrant's priority is feeling feelings and things pertaining to relationships. Competitively, producing the behavior "pain" could be an oversight looking to avoid hurting someone else's feelings or one's own feelings by hiding true feelings about a situation. Creatively, it could be a growth opportunity to see what would really be the outcome after choosing unwisely by pleasing people at one's expense instead of serving people and requiring them to treate you respectfully. The lower right brain avoids confronting so serving someone would feel emotionally painful to a person thinking this way.

"Pain" can be viewed from the upper right brain as an non-thinking, unconscious oversight to competitively try to childishly act out to get noticed and feel appreciated. This brain quadrant's priority is creative thought to get noticed to feel important because of one's performance. Competitively, producing the behavior "pain" could be an "acting out" to feel more important instead of ignored. It could be an attention-getting actoin. Creatively, it could be a growth opportunity to see how to accept responsibility for one's own actions, to use it as a memory to grow up instead of act immature just for the sake of being noticed.

"Pain" can be viewed from the upper left brain as a strategy to competitively force accuracy to be the priority during a specific goal. This brain quadrant's priority is accuracy. Competitively, producing the behavior "pain" could be a tactic to "prove" accuracy and perfectionism is more important than anything else during a situation. Creatively, it could be a unfortunate result of an experiment necessary to prove that the selected option was the wrong option.

There. How's that Melissa? If anyone has any questions about my post, please e-mail me.
Susan Fox
www.yoursecretwishes.com

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Permalink Reply by Celeste Hackett, CH on July 3, 2008 at 6:28am

Hi Melissa, It is the action of the mind to the body to my understainding so I can see this as a valid perception. I read that line in your book and thought, hmmm haven't heard it quite that way before. Certainly, too, a very empowering way for clients to see it.

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Permalink Reply by Susan French on July 3, 2008 at 7:38am

Hi Melissa,

I've been missing your posts. I really want to hear EVERYTHING you have to say about pain, you and every one else who has had experience in this area.

A wonderful and insightful collegue of ours said once, about a question I had asked her about my own back pain: Sometimes the bus really did hit you and hurt your body (or something like that). Her meaning was, and I agree with her, is that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I've come to believe that real pain caused by real physical issues can be dealt with hypnotically to reduce pain, to let the person go into trance and get a break from pain and to deal with the anger, sadness and grief that comes naturally with being in pain and or disabled in any way.

I've come to believe that it is possible that health issues can be a manifestation of repressed emotional conflict but that it's not always, or even often, the case.

I've come to believe that we have to be very careful to stay in our areas of expertise. We're not doctors. We're not therapists. I think that there is too much blurring of these lines in some of the techniques. I think that we are not governed by a strict enough board to make sure that we know what we're doing.

I think that many of us have learned a lot through experience and have become quite expert at what we do but I believe that many cross those lines (including myself) and that there is a lot of need for caution.

There, I probably STIRRED THE POT. I seem to do that. Please, no hate mail. It's just my opinion. What I've learned about my opinion and others is that they are all just food for thought and consideration. IE, don't' shoot the messenger. I'm already bloody and bruised..lol.

Susan

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Permalink Reply by Patricia V. Scott on July 3, 2008 at 7:43am

Wow, the places my mind went with that opening! Although some people's behavior may be a pain (couldn’t resist), I have come to think of the experience of pain as being an "expression", either of some disturbance within the physical body, or some disturbance in the thought process. I'm convinced that people can get into the habit of having a pain on cue, so to speak. They can literally program themselves to get the pain at certain times and in certain situations. In that way, it might very well be thought of as a learned behavior.

Recently I saw an ad in a magazine that I had to cut out and use in classes. I MUST share this with all of you. It was for a new migraine medication and showed a pondering woman at her work desk with bubbles of thoughts above her head. The sequence went like this:

Bubble #1: "If I get a MIGRAINE (their emphasis) tomorrow......"
Bubble #2: "I'll never make it through that two-hour recital....."
Bubble #3: "But Kate's counting on me to be there....."
Bubble #4: "Plus, I've got that presentation for work due Monday....."
Bubble #5: "Somehow I'll have to get it done."

Then the ad states the following:

"Thinking about migraines even when you're not having one? Maybe it's time for a change. TxxxxxX can help stop migraines before they start so you can get fewer of them to think about......"

Tell me that ad agencies don't know something about the power of suggestion. And by the way, how do you "STOP" something that doesn't exist…yet???

I'm working with a gentleman who fell off a ladder 3 1/2 years ago and had part of his brain removed. His wife was told he would be a quadriplegic the rest of his life and never regain his body or brain functions, and that she should put him in a nursing home and get on with her life. She didn’t listen. When she called me in to work with him on pain and attitude about 5 months ago, he had recovered a remarkable portion of movement of most of his body. He still must be lifted in and out of wheelchair, but is walking between bars with a physical therapist and astounding the doctors.

On my first visit, he had some pain going on in his back. On a scale of 1-100, with 100 being the worst, it was at about 70. Just talking with him and getting him to create some imagery to represent releasing endorphins from his brain and sending them down his back, he was able to immediately take it to 40. A few minutes later it was insignificant. His mind envisioned the endorphins as musical notes, so that is what we have used since.

Sorry to be so wordy (you know ME), but back to the point. In speaking with him, it became obvious he had come to “expect” that whenever he sat for over ½ hour, the pain would show up. I think pain comes from our belief system. As a matter of fact, I would go so far as to say that ALL of our problems, conditions, painful memories, diseases, etc., are caused, exacerbated or affected by our belief system. That may be a radical stretch for some to accept, but as long as I hold that “belief” in my energy when working with clients, I somehow seem to be able to help them consider that possibility, and sometimes that alone facilitates profound changes that help them to move forward. The reason I believe that hypnosis and NLP are so powerful in dealing with the experience of pain is that it allows the person to go inside to discover the source of what really needs attention. Change the beliefs and the expectations, and you change the expression and experience of pain.

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Permalink Reply by Joshua Johnston on July 3, 2008 at 1:41pm

I think that's an interesting perspective. There is a physical sensation associated with pain (ie; the physical sensation of the injury), but pain expresses itself as a set of behaviors. Avoidance of certain objects, body positions, stimuli, etc. Perhaps lashing out to prevent the pain-causing thing from coming near. And so on, so forth.

The behaviors sometimes perpetuate the pain, however, rather than preventing it. Or even actively cause *more* pain.

I haven't refreshed this page since this morning, so I haven't seen what your actual perspective is, so I may have missed the mark you were going for. ;)

Joshua

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