Hypnosis Vs. Religion

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Gilson Costa on July 27, 2008 at 1:02pm

When we´re young people tend to explain everything based on the asumption that we can´t undestand "complex" things. So they explain things in "simplified" form. So simple that in fact is a huge distortion. And they forgot that first as we grow up we´ll still believe in the same things they thaught us. And second, they forgot to tell us that is a simplification.

This leads to fanatic "true believers" or disapointment. Or we become crusaders on a holly war to defend a false idea, or we become more and more skeptic even about some basic facts of our world. In first case, is kind obvious that we must destroy "intelligence" and thinking in direct proportion to the "falseness" of the simplifications we learned. In the second, our disapointment lead us to doubt everything, even truth.

We´re told that human beings are guided by reason and logic and we tick by emotion. They told us that we learn by means of explanation, and we learn because we want to. We think we´re puritan gentlemen, when in fact we´re brilliant monkeys.

As so, we can notice trance states (not hipnosis) in many religions because we´re humans. Trance is the normal state of our mind. We can notice it in learning, love, relationship, politics. Every activity dealing with human beings, if done well, are done in trance. Religion included. And science too.

We learn science, as we learn everything: we trance in the knowledge. We open to the new (bypass critical factor) and we establish acceptable thinking (the new knowledge). We fall in love the same way: we open to the new, and establish that the other is our love.

The question is: the knowledge we acquire is true? Can we trust it? Be it religion, science, hipnosis, etc. we MUST make these quiestions, sorting out for good ones. "If we open the doors of perception the world would appear to us as it is: infinite". If we clean out our perception we would "see" everything on its real nature.

Including hipnosis that, for me, has become a NEW religion.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Bernie Nordquist on July 27, 2008 at 1:37pm

I am a little puzzled about any need for a relationship between religion and morality. Would this imply that I, as an atheist, am immoral? Absorb this thought for a moment. Because in my mind it does indicate progress in religious thinking. Imagine me making the statement,
"I am an atheist", three hundred years ago. What would have been the consequences? Well history tells us that I would most probably have been tortured to recant or executed. And today I am simply judged immoral. I consider that progress, don't you?
Just a thought!
Bernie

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Carol Pettirossi on September 27, 2008 at 7:37pm

Why would you be judged at all? No need to judge another point of view. It just is! In my opinion, it's all God, or it's all the collective consciousness, or the Divine Matrix (as Gregg Braden would say). It's all energy, a unified field, that we are a part of. I try to look at the bigger picture and when I do that, I see that we are all connected. I am Catholic and was taught from the Baltimore Catechism that God is everywhere. Aren't we simply tumbling around in a semantic sea?

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rev.William Mitchell M.Div.,BCH,CI on December 21, 2008 at 7:17pm

Respect for the right to decide one's own beliefs is a great advance of the enlightenment, reason,and modernity. However, as far back in history as Psalm 14:1 of the scriptures we read of people that did not believe in any God." The fool says in his heart,there is no God" So we know that people have questioned any belief in God for a long time ,if not from the beginning.
It is one of the great sins of the church that torture and the threat of death were ever sanctioned as valid methods of evangelism.Personally,it is my belief that whenever you join the church with the state,you get the many evils of the fallen human system of government(based on force) joined with the self-righteous fanaticism of the ignorant and often sick believers that totally misunderstand the Vision of the Kingdom of God. (Speak out in China about the govt. you could be tortured or killed today,our own govt. tortures those we fear politically. The State uses force,the Kingdom uses our sense of justice and compassion to turn our hearts toward obedience,not force.)

The church persists today not because of those past sins,but in spite of them ,because it is recognized that the true belief and message was never to torture or kill.
The question is not can you be ethical without believing in God, rather the question should be, Why do people around the world have such similar beliefs about what is right ethically,or just or fair,if there isn't a Creator or God?
Why haven't our very diverse cultures created very different beliefs in what is FAIR,or GOOD or DECENT?
My guess is you were raised in a culture that has been built upon the radical beliefs of biblical Christianity.
Therefore it is not at all surprising that you could choose to accept ethical positions that reflect the value system of Judea-Christian ethics.
Now has education,reason, and science freed us from genocide,hunger,or poverty?
Are people happier or less lonely because our culture promotes radical individualism that tells us to make all our ethical decisions based upon our momentary desires ,feelings or utilitarian needs?
I am grateful that you may honestly express your views and opinions without fear of persecution.
The early Christians were persecuted ,killed and earned their place in a hostile culture that did not share the Christian Vision of the Kingdom of God on earth. That vision has often been lost in the abuses of the church,but the vision remains the purpose of the Church.
Respectfully, William Mitchell

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Mentat on July 28, 2008 at 1:04am

To not answer your question and just share some thoughts: I don't think anything disproves the existence of God. And yes, I certainly think God exists. Some of the most brilliant minds throughout history have thought God exists. Biologists tend to be the ones(I think) that don't believe in God. I can think of a few notable physicists that have believed in God. Einstein, Von Braun, Newton, etc. And there's a much larger list. Each of these people were brilliant.

I have read probably over 500 books on psychology(not all of the books but the important information). I have also studied biology. Nothing disproves God.

I know that was not entirely pertaining to your original post. But I wanted to share it.

Take care

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by GIL BOYNE on July 28, 2008 at 5:55am

Hypnosis is a natural state of mind with special identifying characteristics. "Hypnosis is neither religious or irreligious, good or evil, helpful or harmful"! It simply opens the door to the path that leads directly to the "Inner Mind". If we change the wording and call it "Spiritual Reverie", the same identifying characteristics are still present. This natural state of mind existed in mankind long before the word "hypnosis" was coined.
Every culture has it's own rituals (inductions into a trance state)
and ceremonies which are usually spiritual in nature and operate to set aside the cognitive function. How this state of mind is used, abused or exalted is decided by humans, consciously or subconsciously. Is religious ectasy to be labeled "hypnosis ?"We cannot identify all inner mind behaviors and phenomena as "Hypnosis"or even "trance". The problem in mental health therapies is the need to label (diagnose) and then teach the client to live up the diagnosis.
Until we acknowledge our spiritual and divine nature, we remain
lesser animals with a highly developed brain. Every hypnotherapstI have ever met, who has been in the work for ten years or more, doing clinical work with clients, has come to acknowledge a higher power, a source from which our creativity arises. Hypnotherapist who practice "Transforming Therapy", (other than minor symptoms and problems)are very fortunate. We are all conditioned to a cynical disbelief in our ability to use our own powers in our own behalf.
We know that others can be transformed, but we experience great difficulty in giving to ourselves the authority that clients give to us.
As we continue to witness the incredible changes occuring in our clients, we may finally come to sing out[i]],"Amazing Grace that saved a wretch like me, for I was lost and now I'm found--was blind and now I see"[i]
We may never know how IT works, but we can give thanks each day that are the witness to the Glory and the Miracle of Transformation.
Most talk of "Body and Mind, but very add SOUL to the equation.
I say to all therapists, of every persuasion, "Give up your fears and reservations, put on the armor of "Trust in Spirit" and learn that you can overcome your ignorance of the inner power available to you.
You can shake off the cynicism of materialism and the pronouncements of Mind Scientists who search for labels to define and explain the power of the "Invisable World"
With Respect, Gil Boyne

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by rebecca j on December 21, 2008 at 8:06am

Right On! Gill

Rebecca

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Rev.William Mitchell M.Div.,BCH,CI on December 21, 2008 at 7:41pm

Well said Mr. Boyne!
It is amazing to me that so many quasi-scientists, naively think describing and naming some natural phenomena somehow robs that same phenomena of it's mystery and power!
I never tire of admiring the beauty of God's handiwork!
Does anyone know how or why hypnosis works? There isn't a Ph.D. or M.D. researcher that would claim they have unlocked the key to Hypnotism! So how can anyone presume to think that calling something HYPNOSIS
means it no longer has mystery and power?
Spiritually,just saying gravity,does not mean you have understood anything about Creation,you just observed,described,and named a natural phenomena! That is it! Science does not have the power to understand WHY! Science has the power to describe and utilize natural phenomena,but as St. Augustine wrote in the pre-scientific 400's AD "We were created to delight in God and use the creation. However,we sin because we delight in creation and try to use God."
I am surprised how many people do not understand the limits of the scientific method.
Respectfully,William Mitchell

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Yisroel Homnick on August 3, 2008 at 11:10am

Leo, how do I keep this short, when your question encompasses all of life?
My view on G-d and religion: Very real. When I look internally, I see the thousands upon thousands of things that must work in perfect harmony to keep me alive even for a second (I'd have a hard time explaining multiple layers of programming on a DNA strand, or a couple of hundred molecules lined up exactly on a strand of hemoglobin in a simply evolutionary way). If I choose to look externally, I see equal numbers of objects and factors that must work in perfect harmony to create conditions for life on earth (the rain cycle, seasonal cycle, growing cycles, etc. If the sun was closer or further, if water froze from bottom up like everything else, if there wasn't an ozone layer, etc...). It seems quite obvious that there is a higher power that wants there to be life, even life that can think independently.
Personally speaking, within my own spiritual tradition we have carefully handed down, parent to child, throughout the generations, a series of miraculous occurences over decades, the high point of which was a Divine Revelation of the Law to an entire nation (the only such claim in the history of the world). This has been followed by survival against all odds against many enemies much more numerous and physically powerful than us. While you might somehow have a hypnotic explanation for this (Even with much hypnotic experience, I can't get my arms around a scenario that would explain the entire phenomenon), I would be quite foolhardy not to believe in G-d, and His involvement in human affairs. In truth, to me the fact that the human race hasn't annihilated itself tells me G-d must be involved.
As to use of suggestion, hypnotic trance-like movements, dances and activities within religion, this only bothers me if it's used as manipulation, not if it's used for self-mastery.
An example: If a woman came to you, and you see she has talked into herself that there is no way she can ever lose weight, would you feel guilty using hypnosis and NLP to switch new helpful suggestions for her unhelpful suggestions? I hope not!
Similarly, if a fellow comes to me, and he's used his imagination to convince himself that if only he had this money... that woman... that job... more time, THEN he'd be happy! I feel no guilt suggesting to him to be grateful for what he has, to communicate with G-d, even to serve G-d - especially since I've never yet seen a truly happy person without a deep, meaningful spiritual life. Yes, I've seen people stave off unhappiness by staying busy, chasing goals and looking towards some imagined future - but never truly being happy without that profound connection to G-d.
Yes, I WOULD feel guilty if I told him he had to listen to everything I said, donate his money to my organization, etc. But then, I think you'd feel guilty if you told that woman that to lose weight, she'd have to listen to everything you said, give her money to your organization...
So, as long as hypnosis is used to help and not dominate, enlighten and not enslave, manage and not manipulate, it has its place in marketing, psychology, medicine, religion, politics and elsewhere.
Perhaps, Leo, the incredible abilities of the mind might even suggest the existence of G-d. Could such a powerful instrument have been formed through many positive, fortunate accidents? Or would we need an infinite G-d to be able to concentrate such incredible power into a finite human being?
Personally, I believe that our incredible abilities to imagine are needed to even conceive of a G-d that transcends Time and Space. I believe that our incredible abilities to use our minds to Create new technologies and realizations is the Divine Spark that allows us to be G-d-like in a small way. I also believe that these faculties can cause us to imagine that we ARE G-d.
How will WE choose to cultivate our mind?

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Bernie Nordquist on August 10, 2008 at 1:48pm

I have been away for a while and just now getting caught up.
To just one of the points raised in this thread:
"You can't disprove God!"

I agree I cannot disprove God, nor can I disprove the tooth fairy, I simply think both are improbable.

Let me point out that you are probably an theist like me, when considering Zeus, Apollo,
Amon, Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan and perhaps a few others we might name; I simply go one God further.
Best wishes
Bernie

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Matthew J. Powderly on October 20, 2008 at 6:20pm

I have no problem with atheists themselves. I do have a problem with those who hold atheism as a more logical, better, or scientific choice, however. Atheism is actually just as much a 'religion' as monotheism. Atheism, like theism, is non-falsifiable. That is, someone may have belief in no God, just as someone may have belief in God. Atheism is the belief in the lack of something, rather than the existence of something. But it is no more justifiable than theism. A true scientific mind would come to the conclusion that such things are anti-probabilities. In statistics, probability is the long term relative frequency of events, what use you have here is in light of evidence. However, both atheism, and theism cannot be tested. Also, we run into the Black Swan paradox, or the Turkey metaphor. Humans, by nature, become more certain of their beliefs, the more evidence they recognize in support of it, indeed, someone in favor of a belief is usually quite good at mainly seeing only support. However, all evidence can be destroyed by just one counter example. If one thinks logically back to the source of existence, he would have to realize that by definition the "beyond" is unknowable (the universe is self contained (conservation of energy), we are of the universe). A particle's practical existence depends on its interactions. Atheism is a justifiable belief, but it has no more support, if not less, than theism. One religion is only more probable based on personal opinion, experience, knowledge, and feelings. The true scientific viewpoint would be agnosticism, an uncertainty. Many religions, especially the modern adaptation of Catholicism, has a lot of support if you study it in depth and especially read the more philosophical teachings of Church Doctors.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Bernie Nordquist on October 26, 2008 at 10:22am

A believer's faith in the anthropomorphic god has never made "him" real. The only way believers can make God real to any degree is by killing and/or converting others to their egotistical and ethnocentric, racist and sexist interpretation of God. No matter how hard you may believe in your version of the formless, genderless, race less divinity, this fervour will not make it so. If such a god were real, there would be no need for belief and faith. Belief is irrelevant and neither proves nor serves anything.
In reality, the way to make God real is to know God, and knowing God will reveal that God could not possibly be an old white man sitting on a throne up in a fictitious heaven pretending to rule the universe. This assumption is utterly impossible.
The knowing of "God" comes through a merging of one's individual consciousness with that of universal consciousness, the union of one's own mind with the mind of the "creator." The creator is revealed as being creativity itself. It is simply the quality of creativity, and not a person or a myth. The "creator" is the aspect of the mind that allows for creativity. It is the mechanism by which the universe creates life and perpetuates itself. The Creator has no gender, no form and no race or ethnicity. It is not a human being, as much as the meaningless and petty little human would wish to make of it. Knowing God as the creative life force behind all creation, instead of a silly white male human being seated in a castle in the clouds, is the ultimate freedom of perspective. It is only in the knowing, however, and not the believing, that this freedom of perspective comes into being.
In this respect, and because this formless, genderless and race less truth exists with or without human belief, it is positively useless to believe in God. This life force will have existence everywhere at all times whether or not anyone believes in it. It is like the sun. You do not need to believe in the sun. You can see it and feel it. You are certain that it exists. Even if you did not believe in it, it would still exist. It surely does not care if you don't believe in it.
Blind belief, whether in God or anything else, is not only ridiculous and immature, it is dangerous, as is evidenced by the countless murders and atrocities committed by believers over the millennia, and by violent acts that will continue to be committed so long as humans think it virtuous and righteous to believe in an anthropomorphic god who is separate from themselves. Such an opinion is not virtuous at all; on the contrary, it is lowly and base, and the mark of a poor intellect.
Belief in God is not a sign of piety and godliness but of ignorance and incomplete realization and evolution of consciousness. No person drowned in belief and delusion can be whole, can be his or her own authority. Any such person is controllable by outside authority, cannot think for him or herself, and does not move on his or her own authenticity. He or she is not autonomous. He or she is not free. Such a person is not in tune with the force of creation and is therefore not creative. The center of creativity of a believer is clogged up and closed down.
The intelligent person strives to know "God," rather than settling for childish and naive belief in another's interpretation of a formless divinity. And knowing is science. This attainment of knowledge may done through study, contemplation, meditation and the ultimate experience of perfect inner silence, and not through any belief whatsoever. There is no god person who needs your belief or defence. It is not possible to insult or blaspheme that which does not exist; hence, warlike and violent defence of your limited concept of "the divine" is retarded and unconscious. Indeed, the only "blasphemy" is treating real, living human beings like pathetic, born-in-sin pieces of garbage while exalting an invisible and imaginary giant man in the sky. There is certainly nothing righteous in this behaviour. What is righteous is perceiving the entire cosmos as sublime and marvellous.
One can be an atheist as I understand the meaning and still have spirituality.
FWIW
Bernie Nordquist

▶ Reply to This

• 1
• 2
• 3
• 4
• 5