Speed Hypnosis / Rapid inductions Speed and Danger?

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Permalink Reply by Gilson Costa on August 23, 2008 at 3:35pm

Justing, the induction begins in the moment the person knows you are a hypnotist. People doing stage shows know this. In the moment they agree to be in the same place a hypnotist are, or agree to volunteer, they are already in trance!

I´ve seen a guy talk 10 minutes to a person and say that the induction was fast (he only counts the las 10 seconds of what he was doing). He did all what we called waking hypnosis on the person to a point that everything he did from that point on was only a convincer. A convincer to the person and to himself.

Most of this "fast" inductions are either convincers or just re-induction triggers. Sessions and sessions with a very "resistent" client, with a lot of fear and I can set an anchor: "Every time I snap my finger and say sleep you´ll return to this beautiful state"... The person return as fast a his neurology is trained to return.

But, if we take away from this discussion the marketing or cultural issues (big is better), is this a useful discussion? Are people paying us to change or because we can make inductions a fraction of second faster than our competiotion? What can we possibly do in this 1/10th of second we gain?

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Permalink Reply by Sean Michael Andrews C.H. C.I. - WorldsFastestHypnotist.com on August 23, 2008 at 3:39pm

Justin:
I agree, it looks dangerous. He's not controlling the volunteers and it appears that they are being allowed to drop, unguided to the ground. I do a lot of instant inductions, but I always control my volunteers. I am a BIG safety advocate.

On a lighter note, the question of how to time the speed of an induction came up a couple of years ago when I contacted the Guinness people to see if I could attempt a record for the world's fastest hypnotic induction. I was going to line up ten volunteers and see how quickly I could put them into trance. Guinness sent me a very nice letter, informing me that they would not consider a record for speed hypnosis because there is no way to scientifically prove if all the people I hypnotize actually go into trance. "Thank you very much for writing, but our decision is final." Oh well.

-Sean Michael Andrews
WorldsFastestHypnotist.com

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Permalink Reply by Justin James on August 23, 2008 at 3:58pm

OK Sean, So where do you time your induction??? What is the start, and what is the end??

Now personally the end for me is the point where I can produce hypnotic phenomena. However I am hearing so much Hype about this I want to know!

On A different point Gilson, yes rapid inductions are in many cases used to take a client further into hypnosis (fractionate them) however the hype is that these process do not need anything else and in just seconds Ta Da!

I actually agree with that in that I can produce hypnotic phenomena very quickly however when you time an induction... do you start where? an introduction? When you walk into the room??

Justin

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Permalink Reply by Gilson Costa on August 23, 2008 at 4:53pm

Two Answers:

1. Exactly! HYPE. "Don´t believe the hype"!

2. Let´s say the work you have to do in person´s mind is like a seed. the seed to grow needs water. We can compare hypnosis like a watering can. Rain would be the natural process of change called "life" (random).
My question is, based on the pressuposition that we have more control and are faster when we use a watering can than waiting to rain: Is it NECESSARY to measure how fast the water fall from the watering can?

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Permalink Reply by Sean Michael Andrews C.H. C.I. - WorldsFastestHypnotist.com on September 10, 2008 at 2:21am

Justin:
Timing the speed of the induction is of course a problem, as you mentioned. As soon as the volunteer knows you are a hypnotist, is that the start of the induction?. You know we can never get a definitive answer on this. If we could all decide what the starting point is, our next problem becomes how to determine hypnosis has ocurred. If we use producing hypnotic phenomnenon, someone will find fault with that. Does eye-lock count? Some will demand amnesia or positive hallucinations. Gil Boyne says that many of his former students (I'm one) have claimed to be "The World's Fastest Hypnotist", but one student decided to try something different. He claimed to be "The World's Slowest Hypnotist". :-) He even had his briefcase lettered with the title.

FYI, I checked the web, and the address www.WorldsSlowestHypnotist.com is available, just in case someone wants to snap it up. BUT www.WorldsFastestHypnotist.com is TAKEN! :-)

-Sean Michael Andrews

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Permalink Reply by Lee Darrow on September 3, 2008 at 9:57am

I've had a brief talk with Hon and it was interesting. He stated that there's a lot that's not seen on the video as far as how he controls how the people get to the ground. In my discussion with both him and Mr. Noblezada, we came to a tentative agreement that they would be coming to Chicago so I could review the product and possibly even tape some additional footage on the safety issues involved.

Since our discussions, just before the Labor Day holiday, I haven't heard from them since and hope to work this out with them.

I promised Mr. Noblezada a fair and unbiased review, regardless of whatever else happens and we are working on the details of how that is going to happen at least that's how it stood when last we spoke. Mr. Noblezada and Mr. Hon were very forthright in their statements regarding safety issues and stated that this material was not intended for beginners.

I'll keep the group informed as things progress.

Lee Darrow, C.H.
www.stagehypnosissafetyclass.com
"The Stage Hypnosis Safety Guy"

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Permalink Reply by Brian David Phillips on August 23, 2008 at 5:00pm

Justin, now THAT's an interesting question. I've been discussing this very video promotion on a couple of the magic forums and my own Hypnosis Technique Exchange yahoogroup.

The question of when one starts timing is genuine. Personally, I like speed hypnosis . . . no, I LOVE it . . . but I honestly believe that once one gets into arguing about just how fast fast is one is missing the point of the hypnosis. Obviously Hon Wong is leveraging his speed by only timing the actual sleep command with armpull for himself but also saying that other hypnotists can't match him as they have lengthy pretalks (while not counting his own pretalk in his own timing).

One thing that really, honestly, bugged me about the Zap promotional material is that they are pitching it as totally unique and original with statements that NO ONE else in the world can do this stuff. Hon is on record of saying that all other hypnotists who say they can do fast inductions are really not able to do it. In his television interview he says the fastest by others is seven to ten minutes . . . see the 1:10 mark at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC0jubJffwA for the statement (regarding a question from his son). He goes on in other promotional materials to say other hypnotists use a lot of time for their pretalk and the like and in the interview his "pretalk" is shown to just be "when I do this you will do that" but actually the entire interview is a setup for suggestion as the intended trance partner is standing there listening and building anticipation for the thing while Hon talks to the interviewer and we don't have any idea who the helper was. As a person who teaches speed hypnosis - in a safe and non physically intrusive way - this really bugs me as he is framing those of us who teach genuine speed hypnosis as frauds or incompetents.

Those familiar with the speed hypnosis products or trainings offered by myself, Richard Nongard, John Cerbone, Gil Boyne, Sean Michael Andrews, Tom Silver, Jerry Kein, and many many others know that the single second execution is only a very small part of the actual induction. I know you also use instant and rapid inductions in your work as well. It's common and easy to do but there's a lot more that goes into things than that one moment of execution.

There are a lot of folks teaching speed hypnosis techniques, the concept is NOT new.

Really, power sells to adolescent fantasies about control and power and speed bug me, particularly when they are based upon a premise that no one else can do this and it's completely original and beyond the ken and understanding of other hypnotists. Poppycock. There are a LOT of folks who can do this. The zap materials MAY indeed be worthwhile and some folks may indeed get value from the product, but the pitch is what really pushes my buttons. Certainly, the armpull is indeed a powerful induction. The zap is obviously effective, the folks who say they learned it from Hon at Noblezada's magic forum event do say they have a fairly high success rate with it (not one hundred percent but high). Yes, I take partial issue based upon umbrage and being irked but I am also concerned with the safety issue (I have no doubts the actual induction works, I use my own variant and it works great and certainly folks familiar with any of the other speed hypnotists who post to youtube and the like have seen them use it or a variant - actually, contrary to Hon's various statements, you may even be hard pressed to find a speed hypnotist who has never used used an armpull or variant at one time or another).

There is an example of my armpull induction in the video at http://www.briandavidphillips.com/video/speed_1.html . . . the very first example clip 0:10-0:35 . . . that's not one second but then neither was Hon's one second induction really one second as he also talks to the person beforehand (the only example where he didn't was obviously after he had been doing it to other folks and the guy had seen it and had heard the setup and as he was working from positive examples knew what to do in response much more quickly) . . . my video is also slowed down because the young woman has a cold and stops to tell me that . . . this was her first ever hypnosis session and that was the entire setup. I suppose that the way Hon times his inductions then mine is also one second as he only starts timing from the actual armpull and disregards the rest of the setup (although he seems to feel that all other hypnotists need several minutes for their setups). My armpull is a variant of the standard armpull, however, there is also an original twist to it the setup that enhances the piece's effectiveness. Actually, I have the impression that the additional twist I put at the beginning is far more an original adaptation than Hon's power pull version. You don't need that enhancement to perform an armpull, but it tends to make the thing a bit more useful and it works.

I am not so sure that there will be much safety discussion in the video or that the producers even see it as a real issue. Jay Noblezada (one of the video producers) answered the comments about safety and pulling folks to the ground with the following statement on the Penguin Magic forum:

"Zap is Safe. No one has ever said a thing to me, Hon, or Gordon about their arm hurting, ie: socket, soreness, lawsuits.... yadayadayada. .......... Hypnosis is NOT a state of sleep. But a state of heightened awareness, which is probably why subjects in the videos can catch themselves."

I disagree that one need not be concerned about folks falling and hurting themselves. Even with relatively less physically intense approaches, I've seen accidents happen and when one is tossing subjects to the ground like that, it really needs to be addressed (perhaps they will add it, as of the 21st when Jay posted, the video was not yet out of production) . . . especially as this product is being pitched to beginners who have no experience in hypnosis.

Yes, it could be that Won Hong is pulling much more softly on the arm than it appears and that folks are falling swiftly on their own. However, I suspect that this is not the case. He is obviously giving a solid forceful tug on the arm - albeit, probably not so much to cause injury in the arm (although that is possible and I know that some hypnotists DO injure their trance partners in this way) but the fall to the ground does not appear to be protected. Jay says that there are examples on the video of him taking more care but all of the examples in the demo do not show that.

All the best,
Brian
http://www.briandavidphillips.com

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Permalink Reply by Justin James on August 23, 2008 at 5:22pm

Ok I just watched that one... Taking away from anything else he has several seconds explaining and then he is having to do a rapid patter to keep the guy down.. so how do you measure that... There is no hypnotic phenomena produced at all...

That is far from several seconds... never mind less then a second...
This will be an interesting discussion.!

Justin

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Permalink Reply by Geez on August 23, 2008 at 6:03pm

I have always love your techniques Brian... and I agree with you some of the marketing and sales techniques does bug me and add to the public perception that hypnosis is voodoo.

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Permalink Reply by Geez on August 23, 2008 at 5:51pm

I agree that common sense must be used... some of the so-call "shock" inductions scares me too.

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Permalink Reply by chris john on September 3, 2008 at 9:05am

just want to say, i see that video you mention on you-tube,
and i too thought what a dangerous form of induction.

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Permalink Reply by Lee Darrow on September 3, 2008 at 9:50am

Timing for speed, to me, is, for the most part, irrelevant, as far as trying to determing who's "the fastest hypnotist in the world." I just Googled "fastest hypnotist" and found over twenty different people promoting themselves as the "fastest hypnotist."

So what?

Speed isn't everything, as any professional knows. Entertainment is the overriding requirement for a show. Justin and I are, I believe, on the same page on this point - entertainment is the requirement and who is "fastest" really is irrelevant, except for unprovable marketing hype.

Single rapid inductions work well for me, generally, partly because I do a lot of pre-induction selection in a quick and fun way, with everything I do being a "hook" to get the audience in the mood to want to come on stage and actively participate. But I also hedge my bets by using re-inductions via triggers, throughout the show, as many others do, partly for the theatrical effect (audiences love to see people drop into trance) and partly to re-ratify trance for the volunteers and partly because they keep telling me, after the show that they enjoy the experience of being triggered back into trance.

As to number three, nope. Partly because I'm pretty good at calibration, pacing and leading, not to mention initial volunteer selection.

Lastly, mitigating dangerous moves is easy - don't DO them in the first place! Arm pulls can be hazardous to someone with a rotator-cuff injury - and you have no way of knowing who has one of those unless you ask first, so ask, keeping someone from falling is relatively easy - start with them sitting down, use the seatbelt suggestion (they are seat-belted into their chair and cannot fall out of it) and, stay close so that if they start to fall, you can support them, anyway! Also, during your setups, doing the right-side, left-side leaning exercise (as a demonstration of how relaxed they might get) is a way of "setting them up for how they will relax during the show.

Lee Darrow, C.H.
www.stagehypnosissafetyclass.com
"The Stage Hypnosis Safety Guy"

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